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Jimmy,
JA> What's YOUR opinion? Why?
See my comment below.
DS> The main argument is that "what groom would beat his bride to death
DS> on their wedding night??".
JA> Honestly I've never heard that! The main argument for it that I've
JA> always heard is "God will not allow His people to suffer wrath." My
JA> thinking has become, though, that 'tribulation' is not the same as
JA> "wrath of God."
He said we will have tribulation (lower case) in this life...but that
the believers on Christ will NOT be here for the Tribulation (upper case).
Jesus said in Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept the word of My
Patience, I will keep you from the hour of Tribulation that will come
upon the world to try all those who dwell upon the Earth". Basically, the
planet and mankind will be judged for its rejection of the Savior.
JA> I agree about the 70th week of Daniel. I've never thought of it in
JA> terms of wedding tradition though. Very interesting!
In the Jewish Wedding Custom, the potential groom has to offer a dowry
to the potential bride's father...usually a hefty sum of money for taking
their daughter in marriage, and depriving their family of "a worker". Yet,
it was up to the bride to decide whether or not to accept the groom's
proposal. If she refuses, he goes away, never to see her again. If she
accepts, they are betrothed (what we'd consider engaged), but they have
no sexual relations until the wedding night.
As a side note (so this message isn't all gloom and doom...I'll get back
to that in a minute)...here's a cute joke about an engaged couple.
This couple contacts the local preacher, and asks him to marry them. He
says that he will marry them...but, only if they promise not to have sexual
relations until their wedding night...the couple agreed.
Well, a few weeks later, the couple went back to see the preacher, and
confessed that they had not kept their side of the agreement. The groom to
be said his bride to be was on top of a ladder to replace a burned out light.
He continued that "I looked up under her dress, the lust bug bit me, and I
made love to her right there". The preacher said "I'm sorry...I can't marry
you"...and the groom to be said "I can't say that I blame you. The folks at
Home Depot weren't happy about it, either".
Now, back to the topic of the message.
JA> I think this is partly where I disagree. I don't see the seals as
JA> God's Judgement. If I'm wrong, and you can show me in scripture, I'd
JA> be very very interested to see that!
The first seal is the releasing of the antichrist, with the rider on
the white horse. This part is bascially "giving the world what it wants".
I saw a post the other day where this liberal commentator said that the
GOP wants "white supremacy Christianity" to rule the world. The thing is,
God is "color blind"...He does NOT look on the color of your skin, but
the color of your heart. If it has not been washed clean of the blackness
of sin by the Blood Of Jesus, that person isn't going to Heaven. As the
Scripture in Isaiah 64:6 notes "Our righteousness is as filthy rags"...
literally bloody menstrual cloths...before God. The one thing God requires
is "to believe on The One He has sent" (John 6:29, Acts 16:31).
God's Standard is PERFECTION...an earthly life without one single sin
in thought, word, or deed. As Scripture notes "If you've broken the Law
at one point, you've broken the law at all points". This way of "total
moral perfection" is offered...but except for Jesus, no one can meet
that requirement.
But, as the Israelits of old said, they wanted a king like everyone else,
instead of God ruling over them. So, being a Gentleman, God gave them what
they wanted, and they got more than they bargained for.
The antichrist is basically "the counterfeit prince of peace"...and
he proclaims himself as "the savior of the world"...and both the Jews
and Gentiles that missed the rapture will fall for his ruse. To the Jews,
Jesus was at best, a misunderstood rabbi who didn't have all his marbles
together...or a worst, a deceiving blasphemer. In short, He wasn't the
Messiah they were looking for.
As for the antichrist, many have speculated about his identity. The thing
is, if you KNOW who he is, then you missed the rapture!! I'm not looking
for the antichrist (although I believe that he's alive somewhere on Earth
right now)...I'm looking for the blessed hope in Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13).
The antichrist will also get that peace treaty signed for 7 years
(equivalent to the last 7 years of rule by mortal main), but he will
break it 3 1/2 years in. He will also allow the Jews to rebuild their
temple. I understand that except for the Ark Of The Covenant, which
is yet to be located...and procuring the ashes of the red heifer...
all the other implements for the new temple and its construction, as
well as the priests to do the work needed, are ready and in place.
Apparently, the third temple will be able to be rebuilt rather quickly,
once the Jews have the permission to do so. Right now though, trying
to start construction on it, would set of World War III.
Prophecy indicates that 3 1/2 years after he signs the treaty, he
will go into the Holy Of Holies, commit the abomination of desolation
by declaring himself as God (by this time, he will have become indwelt
by Satan), erecting a statue of himself, and the false prophet will
cause that image to speak.
The false prophet also sets up the Mark Of The Beast, where everyone
will have to take it to buy, sell, pay bills, hold a job, or receive
benefits. Those who do are damned forever, because they swore their
allegiance to Satan as their eternal master. Those who don't will be
cut off from economic survival. The latter will be hunted down,
arrested, tortured, and beheaded by guillotine.
Back to the seal judgments...the second seal is the releasing of the
red horse, where the rider takes peace away from planet Earth, showing
that the antichrist's claim of peace is just a farce...so widespread
war, crime, etc. will break out. After the rapture, the Holy Spirit
will no longer restrain evil on the Earth (don't even think of calling
911 for protection from criminals and thugs).
The third seal is the releasing of the black horse, and the rider
will cause widespread famine and inflation. As the song "I Wish We'd
All Been Ready" by Larry Norman notes, "A piece of bread would buy
a bag of gold". It'll take one days wages just to buy food for one
meal for one person...and many will go hungry/starve to death.
The fourth seal will release the pale green horse, and the rider
will cause death on a massive scale (I feel this will be of many
of the unbelievers)...then the fifth seal is the mass murder of
believers. There could be at least a billion people perishing with
these 2 judgments alone...but only God knows that number. Sadly,
far more will plunge into Hell, than the number entering Heaven;
although the 144,000 Jewish evangelists "bring so many to Christ
that they can't be numbered". As Hal Lindsey noted, these will be
like 144,000 (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel) Billy
Grahams' turned loose at once...and he added "What a revival!! It's
enough to make a Southern Baptist evangelist's mouth water!!".
The sixth seal is when there's a huge earthquake, and from all
the wars, the light from the sun, moon, and stars, is dimmed. At
that point, the world rulers cry flee to the mountains, asking
them to fall on them, so they don't have to face God.
Then, the seventh seal creates DEAD SILENCE IN HEAVEN for a half
hour, but it "does nothing" to Earth, except giving folks a false
sense of security ("I'm glad that's over"). The seventh seal is
also a precursor to the six trumpet judgments.
In short, it's The Lord Jesus Christ who is in Heaven, and
opens the seals...as "The Lamb That Was Slain" is the only One
found worthy to open them. So, it's all part of God's Wrath...
even though the scope of the catastrophes increase with the
trumpet judgments, and then culminate in overdrive with the
bowl judgments...the latter part of The Great Tribulation.
JA> In other words, the entire 7 years (70th week of Daniel) has been
JA> CALLED the tribulation period in modern times, but the "GREAT
JA> TRIBULATION" starts with the Abomination of Desolation.
That is correct. Jesus said of the last 3 1/2 years that "such a
time was never seen on Earth, nor will ever be again".
JA> My understanding is that the Rapture will occur NOT at the same time
JA> as the Second Coming, but prior to it.
At least 7 years before it. At the Rapture, The Lord comes ONLY into the
Earth's atmosphere to receive those from Pentecost to the Rapture (from
The Church Age, The Age Of Grace). So, ONLY the believers see Him. Yet, at
The Second Coming, as Revelation notes "Every eye will see Him", and "the
tribes of the Earth shall mourn". There may be an interval of time after
the rapture, and when the antichrist is revealed (he will appear to be
the savior of the world), but only God knows how long that interval will
be.
JA> In other words, the 70th week starts and covenant is confirmed. 3-1/2
JA> years later the AC is revealed and sits himself down as the messiah.
JA> This starts the Great Tribulation where you take the mark or die.
JA> During this time Christians will be killed (along with other people)
JA> for not bowing down and worshipping the AC. Then at some point Jesus
JA> will return in the air and call those out.
The tribulation martyrs will be resurrected and receive their new bodies
at the Second Coming...just as the Old Testament Saints. All the unsaved
will NOT be resurrected until after the Millennial Kingdom is finished,
and all of these will be at The Great White Throne Judgment. Those who
were resurrected at the Rapture will be returning to Earth with The Lord
when He comes again. Yet, He will do all the fighting at the Battle Of
Armageddon.
JA> I skipped a bunch of your stuff - things I don't disagree with, but I
JA> don't think are germane specifically to WHEN the rapture occurs...
I still stick with my original statement. Romans 8:1 says that "there is
no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus", and saying the Christians have
to endure part of the tribulation is like saying what Christ did for us
on The Cross wasn't enough. If the latter is the case, it'd be like He
was still in the grave...then ALL of us would be bound for Hell and the
Lake Of Fire...we're all wasting our time...and Heaven would be empty.
The Resurrection is God's Seal Of Approval of what Christ did on The Cross.
And, He knows which ones are just "going through the motions", versus those
who have truly repented.
Daryl
... Free The Indianapolis 500.
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