XPost: can.general, can.politics, ott.general   
   From: Canuck57@nospam.com   
      
   On 21/11/2011 6:52 PM, John Fleming wrote:   
      
   >> $More people as dependants than as workers, worker are outnumbered.  To   
   >> $add to the problem about 1 in 4 over 18 is dependent on the government   
   >> $somehow, contractor, retired, worker, welfare, kid in school or whatever.   
   >   
   > Same is increasingly true with pension plans.  Back in the   
   > days when many defined benefit pension plans were formed,   
   > the number of workers significantly outnumbered the number   
   > of pensioners.   
   >   
   > Since then, people started retiring earlier--25 to 30 years   
   > of service plus age 55 could satisfy the rule of   
   > 80-something many pensions have to qualify for full pension.   
   > On top of that, people are living longer.   
      
   It gets worse.  Years of mismanagement didn't get the yields to pace   
   inflation.  Actuarial BS is what I call it.  Add in you might get a CEO   
   for 4 years, then when they leave they get a full pension skimming off   
   the long term employees.   
      
   Then NorTel situation where it gets devalued 4 times or more.   
      
   Or CPP, where 6 years to full pension without the full pay in and then   
   go back to the old country and live like king.  Rampant abuse there too   
   for CPP.  Plus government borrows from it with below inflation returns   
   so over time it looses value.   
      
   Pensions today are scams for the most part.   
      
   In your name/account/control is the only way to go.   
      
   > Result is there are now as little as two workers for every   
   > retiree.   
      
   Yep, and why they let in so much immigration even when there is a   
   shortage of jobs.  Appeases the "families" in Canada too as lots of   
   cheap labor in a saturated market.   
      
   > Defined benefit plans still need to provide the same level   
   > of income--regardless of how long the retiree lives.  And if   
   > the plan's investments produce less then the income required   
   > to support retirees, guess who comes up with the difference?   
      
   Say you die.  How much does your wife get from the defined plan?  40%,   
   60% or nothing?   
      
   If in your name/account/control she or your estate get 100% of the   
   value.  Not so in pooled scams.  Hell, you could die the next day after   
   retirement and your family gets squat from pooled scams.   
      
   > People working towards retirement wake up one morning to   
   > discover the pension plan has increased their monthly   
   > pension plan contributions to make up for the shortfall.   
      
   Or worse, find out it is going to be hard to live in Canada on a mere   
   $1100/mo CPP.   
      
   >> $BTW, I have been union several times.  Left me with no respect for them.   
   >> $  Many unions are weak place holders, others are militant anti-company   
   >> $to a point they cut their own throats or in the case of government,   
   >> $screw the taxpayers.  Or like GM/CAW and the NDP, Liberal Block bribe   
   >> $for a coupe d'etat.  GM/CAW/UAW got the bailout, but GM lost my   
   >> $business.  Only way to fight the extortion.   
   >   
   > Unions and collective bargaining make sense when a company   
   > has thousands of employees doing similar jobs.  A lot of   
   > time and energy is saved when the company only has to deal   
   > with a small team of negotiators instead of having to   
   > negotiate thousands of individual contracts.  Also, a lot of   
   > hard feelings are avoided because Jo Bloggins happens to be   
   > a better negotiator and can get a slightly better deal than   
   > John Doe who does essentially the same job and has similar   
   > experience and training.   
      
   To a point.  But often union stokes up the greed and envy and   
   entitlement  No way a G12 flunky is worth $80/hr loaded rate at GM with   
   paid idle time.  Or a $45hr postie that in actuality delivers for no   
   more than 4 hours.   
      
   > At the same time, I agree, unions can be their own worst   
   > enemies.  They create an environment where promotion is by   
   > seniority instead of ability and level of contribution. They   
   > drag the employer over a barrel to the point where the   
   > employer closes the plant down or ships production overseas   
   > where people work twice as hard for a third of the pay.   
      
   Saw that in every union environment I was in.   
      
   --   
   All successful people have one thing in common, if even for a moment   
   they think rationally.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)