*** Quoting Janis Kracht from a message to Mike Roberts ***

 > white on rice. I pulled him off, and I panicked, didn't know if it was a
 > stroke or heart attack or what.

 JK> And certainly not caused from being in a cage, right?  Just
 JK> eliminating things..

No.. The first time he got one in the crate was last night. The crate does 
not bother him at all per se. In fact as I say, they were raised with a 
crate, as pups for housebreaking purposes. Dogs usually raised as pups with a 
crate usually by nature look to the crate as their Den. My guys will even go 
in sometimes just to lay down in their own little space. Not shut up, just 
they go in as they consider it their place, kinda like a kid with his own 
room :)

 JK> Yeah, unless your Vet or the Emergency place is experianced with this
 JK> kind of thing, the docs wouldn't figure it for petit mal or grand
 JK> mal, or epilepsy, or whatever.  I was lucky at the time.. This doc in

They led me to believe it was common in dogs. But being the first one, and 
Simon recovered and was medically fine after a battery of tests, He said it 
was a wait and see thing.

 > seem like much You can do ) I finally got him out of  his crate as I
 > feared the uncontrollable flopping was going to cause him to get stuck
 > as he had no control. About 10 minutes later, he hopped up in bed and went
 > to sleep, like nothing happened. As scary as it was, he seemed fine.

 JK> Well, you know what the vet is seeing there.. the dog wants out of
 JK> the cage.. so the vet can't imgine it's from anything else but the
 JK> dog not getting his way.. and it could be that.... but when this
 JK> happened with our dogs, it was nothing like a situation like being
 JK> caged and being "spoiled" ..

The cage may have had nothing to do with it. I was just trying to figure out 
what may have triggered it. I did not take him to the vet with this one, as I 
say, it was his 3rd one. The other 2 times, they said let it happen. He again 
went through heck there for about 10 minutes, but then bounced right back. I 
am afraid they would tell me the same thing. It is not that often that it 
happens. So a daily med may not be necessary or even wise. I dunno about the 
side effects. But in my experience with human meds, if he doesn't need it, I 
would hate to give it him. I do hate seeing him go through it, but don't need 
him to take things that may muck up an otherwise very healthy dog. As I say, 
the cage was just a thought. It wasn't even the cage so much, it was the 
thought that maybe being all mad and excited he could not hop in the bed. It 
may have had nothing to do with it, as the other two had nothing to do with 
that type of thing. The cage or excitement for that matter. I was just 
grasping at straws and actually trying to get feedback on Your thoughts about 
it.

 JK> school, and bust open the door.. or Ron would come downstairs wearing
 JK> a red robe :).. Chesterdidn't see "anyone", just confusing images
 JK> that drove him crazy.

Wow!

 JK> You're talking about when the cage was never a part of the picture?

Yes, when he has had them, in and out of the cage, he just thrashes and 
contorts and cries and whines. His body just contorts and spasms and he has 
no control.

 JK> Could be.  If he's like Chester and Midnight, I guess stress would
 JK> set the two of them off as well.

Maybe that was a factor then.. But it wasn't with the other two. It was like 
You said, would wake up from sleep and it would just happen.

 JK> Yeah, sounds like epilepsy, or petit mal at least.. gets a kind of
 JK> lost look on his face?

Yes, that sounds very much like it.

 JK> whew. try another vet..

Seen 3, all have the same thought.. But they also were not very informative. 
Again, maybe because it happens so seldom at this point. But when it does, it 
sure looks nasty. The first time, having never seen it before, I thought he 
was a goner. In fact any time it has happened, it shocks me he recovers and 
seems so normal.

 JK> I don't remember it getting worse per se.. but then I wasn't willing
 JK> to not get the meds I thought they needed..

Well, as I said, with the frequency, before this one. None of the 3 doctors 
felt it was time for meds I guess. In fact it really was a just let it happen 
type of thing from all of them, maybe it is something they know that I don't 
because of the frequency. A year or so between episodes maybe they just did 
not think it necessary to offer meds. I will be sure to check at their 
physicals.

 JK> Call around.. or ask your vet if he's ever treated a dog with
 JK> epilepsy.. or petit mal episodes..  Be sure to tell him about the
 JK> times when it just happened out of the blue when their was no cage
 JK> involved..

The ones I have talked to all seem to know about the problem, but never felt 
a necessity to treat it. As for the cage, they have no clue about that as the 
last one is the only one that involved the cage and may just have totally 
been coincedence. The ones out of the blue so to speak, prior to the one in 
the cage are the ones he was taken to them for. Emergency vet and a battery of 
tests, Followup with another vet and then of course his regular vet. I will 
be sure to bring it up and clarify things for them and myself when he goes in 
a couple of weeks. If it somehow happens again, I will get him there before.

 JK> take care, Janis

Thanks, and You too. I will drop a post here and let You know what I find 
out.

Have a Good One!
Mike

... Most political jokes get elected

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