XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic   
   From: polcott333@gmail.com   
      
   On 7/28/2025 6:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   > On 7/28/25 7:20 PM, olcott wrote:   
   >> On 7/28/2025 5:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   >>> On 7/28/25 9:54 AM, olcott wrote:   
   >>>> On 7/28/2025 8:21 AM, joes wrote:   
   >>>>> Am Mon, 28 Jul 2025 07:11:11 -0500 schrieb olcott:   
   >>>>>> On 7/28/2025 2:30 AM, joes wrote:   
   >>>>>>> Am Sun, 27 Jul 2025 21:58:05 -0500 schrieb olcott:   
   >>>>>>>> On 7/27/2025 9:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On 7/27/25 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> When DDD is emulated by HHH1 it need not emulate itself at all.   
   >>>>>>>>> But "itself" doesn't matter to x86 instructions,   
   >>>>>>>> By itself I mean the exact same machine code bytes at the exact   
   >>>>>>>> same   
   >>>>>>>> machine address.   
   >>>>>>> Yeah, so when you change HHH to abort later, you also change DDD.   
   >>>>>> HHH is never changed.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> It is changed in the hypothetical unaborted simulation. HHH is   
   >>>>> reporting   
   >>>>> on UTM(HHH', DDD) where HHH' calls UTM(DDD), and not on the halting   
   >>>>> DDD,   
   >>>>> and definitely not on HHH(DDD), itself.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> All halt deciders are required to predict the behavior   
   >>>> of their input. HHH does correctly predict that DDD correctly   
   >>>> simulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own simulated   
   >>>> "return" instruction final halt state.   
   >>>>   
   >>>   
   >>> How is it a "correct prediction" if it sees something different than   
   >>> what that DDD does.   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> What DDD does is keep calling HHH(DDD) in recursive   
   >> simulation until HHH kills this whole process.   
   >   
   > But the behavior of the program continues past that (something you don't   
   > seem to understand) and that behavior will also have its HHH terminate   
   > the DDD it is simulating and return 0 to DDD and then Halt.   
   >   
   > Your problem is you don't understand that the simulating HHH doesn't   
   > define the behavior of DDD, it is the execution of DDD that defines what   
   > a correct simulation of it is.   
   >   
   >>   
   >>> Remember, to have simulated that DDD, it must have include the code   
   >>> of the HHH that it was based on, which is the HHH that made the   
   >>> prediction, and thus returns 0, so DDD will halt.   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> We are not asking: Does DDD() halt.   
   >> That is (as it turns out) an incorrect question.   
   >   
   > No, that is EXACTLY the question.   
   >   
   > I guess you are just admitting that you whole world is based on LYING   
   > about what things are supposed to be.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Turing machines cannot directly report on the behavior   
   >> of other Turing machines they can at best indirectly   
   >> report on the behavior of Turing machines through the   
   >> proxy of finite string machine descriptions such as ⟨M⟩.   
   >   
   > Right, and HHH was given the equivalenet of (M) by being given the code   
   > of *ALL* of DDD   
   >   
   > I guess you don't understand that fact, even though you CLAIM the input   
   > is the proper representation of DDD.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> Thus the behavior specified by the input finite string   
   >> overrules and supersedes the behavior of the direct   
   >> execution.   
   >   
   > No, it is DEFINED to be the behavior of the direct execution of the   
   > program it represent.   
   >   
      
   *That has always been the fatal flaw of all of the proofs*   
   We could equally define the area of a square circle   
   as its radius multiplied by the length of one of its sides.   
      
   It never has been that DDD simulated by HHH is incorrect   
   because it does not agree with what people expect to see.   
      
   It has always been that it is correct because it matches   
   the semantics that the code specifies.   
      
   DDD simulated by HHH specifies that DDD keeps calling   
   HHH in recursive simulation until HHH kills the whole   
   process of DDD.   
      
   --   
   Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius   
   hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)