From: the.beez.speaks@gmail.com   
      
   On 23-05-2024 04:07, dxf wrote:   
   > On 23/05/2024 12:39 am, Hans Bezemer wrote:   
   >> ...   
   >> Sometimes it's not about the destination, but about the voyage. If I wanted   
   to do an item on "the fastest integer square root" algorithm, I wouldn't have   
   called it "Why is Forth so hard", but "The fastest integer square root   
   algorithm".   
   >   
   > True but as 'forth is hard' would have little traction here we may as   
   > well discuss the other.  Were I to tell C users I find it hard, they   
   > would laugh.   
      
   Well, I wouldn't. There are a few peculiarities in C that I find less   
   than obvious. But then again - I think I would strip C from some   
   features that I could do without - and add a few in the meanwhile.   
      
   Of course, once you master a thing - anything - that becomes so natural   
   to you that you don't even think about it. But those who are new to the   
   matter see it with fresh eyes - especially when promises are not fulfilled.   
      
   > So it must be my prejudices that is the barrier.   
      
   I don't think that's a logical conclusion. Unless you want to define   
   'prejudices' in the form of 'expectations'. Because I don't think it's   
   not invalid to see expectations honored. C takes no prisoners. It's   
   clear about that.   
      
   > 'forth is hard' isn't so much a fact as it is evangelism - counteracting the   
   > prejudices. Not that I haven't engaged in such myself :)   
      
   Forth caught me because of a few things:   
   1. It was insanely easy to interface with assembly. I remember redoing a   
   few of Marcel Hendrix string words (Vijgeblad) in assembly;   
   2. Once I converted the thing to disk, it behaved like it was written   
   for disk. Even the error messages were read from disk. It transformed it   
   to a completely new beast. If I'd stuck with Forth long enough to patch   
   it with a 64 chars routine it'd been perfect for that system.   
      
   I first got the internals from a German book (Vögel?). I later dropped   
   it for C, because it fit my IBM PC needs much better than Forth-83   
   (yuk!). But if I hadn't been able to create the Forth I liked I don't   
   think I'd ever revisited Forth.   
      
   And that's - in a sense - still true. I'm fascinated by Forth, what it   
   enabled me to do - and it's that I'm communicating. It's less about   
   being a huge YT success - or to convert the masses to Forth.   
      
   I know that will never happen. We're a dying race. It's not even about   
   "saving one single person, so he can carry forth the fire". It's more   
   about me articulating my fascination with this weird language - may be   
   to try to understand it myself.   
      
   If you think it's about the promotion of Forth, you're dead wrong. If   
   anything, it's about the idea and the enigma of Forth. Whether you care   
   to share that fascination is entirely up to the viewer.   
      
   Hans Bezemer   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)