From: nospam@example.net   
      
   On Mon, 2 Sep 2024, Johanne Fairchild wrote:   
      
   >> Yes, having worked as one, I can see that. For me, the pleasure was   
   >> always in automation, and the quick feedback loops. I would work on a   
   >> piece of the infra-stack, automate as much as possible, and you can do   
   >> that in small cycles of days and weeks, instead of the endless bug   
   >> hunting the developers at one of my jobs did, in some kind of million+   
   >> line CAD software. I always got the feeling talking with them, that   
   >> their job would never end, and you would only see small,   
   >> micro-incremental improvements stretching over years.   
   >>   
   >> Mean while, I'd happily automate my systems, deployments, reports,   
   >> statistics etc. so yes, some kind of programming always was there during   
   >> my time as a linux/unix system administrator.   
   >   
   > I recognize all of the above.  But I think there's an even stronger   
   > point for system administration back then.  When I got introduced to   
   > UNIX systems, it was a time where there were UNIX users and people would   
   > still share the system.  So UNIX administrators did programming that   
   > everyone around the system noticed.  There were mailing lists, NNTP   
   > servers and IRC servers so that people living the same area could talk   
   > to on a daily basis.  Getting online and seeing there were people online   
   > too was a joy.   
      
   Interesting point. Yes, I think there is a strong case for the system   
   administrator to have been put back into the closet. At many big   
   universities and companies, these types of services you mention, have   
   been outsourced and are purchased "as a service". The system   
   administrator only takes care of backend system, and probably the only   
   ones who do interact with him are the developers and/or devops people   
   (unless the system administrator is of course christened devops at that   
   company).   
      
   Of course there are retro-types who still enjoy email, mailinglists,   
   usenet, gopher and irc, but they are few and far in between. So I can   
   definitely see your point here.   
      
   > The web evolved and computers became cheap, so everyone got their own   
   > and that seems to have isolated everyone.  Instead of talking to your   
   > neighbor, you'd then interact with a lot of people across the world.   
   > System administrators got buried.  We only notice their presence now   
   > when things go completely wrong.  Today, the new generation of   
   > programmers have not even heard of W. Richard Stevens.  I have no idea   
   > how they understand the systems they use.   
      
   At the risk of disappointing you, I have no idea who Richard Stevens is.   
   ) In terms of collaboration, I think for me and my generation, there   
   were still shared spaces, but self-hosting at that time, on the internet   
   was out of reach for people who did not go to university. My start in   
   self-hosting was the humble BBS, and that was an excellent technology   
   for building a community that also had a local touch.   
      
   > You offer a shell account to a ``tweenager'' and they decline---thanks,   
   > but no, thanks.  ``I have my own system.''  They see no fun in sharing   
   > in a UNIX system.   
      
   Really? I think you must meet more teenagers! I teach, and each class is   
   roughly divided into thirds. 1/3 don't know what to do in life, and just   
   sit there. Very tough for a teacher to motivate them. 1/3 at least want   
   to pass. They are not naturals, but fight through, and a few of them do   
   discover the passion. Then you have the students that create passion in   
   the teacher. The top 1/3 (actually I'd say probably closer to 15%-20%).   
   They take to the whole self-hosting, sysadmin culture like ducks to   
   water, they explore the packages, they setup their own servers, they   
   collaborate in teams, so the student who has Gbps internet at home sets   
   up a server (or laptop) that the others all login to, they create their   
   own netflix, their own spotify, they play around with nextcloud creating   
   their own OneDrive and collaboration services.   
      
   I still remember one student who came to me 10 months after he started   
   saying that learning the terminal was the single best thing he ever   
   learned about computers. All his life, he had pointed and clicked, and   
   he never realized he could be that efficient and achieve all those   
   things (his own netflix, spotify etc.) with free software and linux.   
      
   So I think there is still a movement, and lots of interest, but I think   
   that there is perhaps not enough people teaching these things.   
      
   What I see in a lot of schools, is plenty of Azure and AWS consultants,   
   lobbying for the schools dropping linux and moving to "serverless", but   
   there is hope! I teach the opposite, so there's at least one person   
   fighting that trend. ;)   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)