XPost: alt.folklore.computers   
   From: tnp@invalid.invalid   
      
   On 31/12/2025 16:46, c186282 wrote:   
   > On 12/31/25 10:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:   
   >> On 31/12/2025 14:21, c186282 wrote:   
   >>> I'm not qualified to fine-critique Penrose. However   
   >>>    when he insisted brains MUST be quantum ... some   
   >>>    little red light went off in my head.   
   >>   
   >> Yes. To anyone who has studied Kant, it is clear that it is the mind   
   >> that invented 'quantum theory'...so to make it an emergent property of   
   >> its own creation, is the wrong sort of feedback   
   >   
   >    Well, you can argue that the QM nature of brain/mind   
   >    always existed - but it's only just now we (Penrose)   
   >    figured it out. :-)   
   >   
   You could, but I wouldn't.]   
      
   QM is just another invention of the mind. What it refers to may well not   
   be of the mind though.   
      
   And it makes the analysis simpler to consider that it is not.   
      
      
      
   >    Strictly, everything is 'quantum' anyhow, protons,   
   >    electrons, quarks, everything.   
      
   No. that is a *metaphysical* assumption. we can assume it pro tem to see   
   where it gets us. Into a right buggers muddle. Along with Penrose.   
      
   Assume instead  that consciousness is absolutely independent of quantum   
   reality and redraw the relationships.   
      
   It all becomes simpler.   
      
      
   >    Whether those levels   
   >    of reality are NECESSARY for 'consciousness' is   
   >    another thing entirely. Seems like ordinary chemistry   
   >    and physics ought to do just fine. Quantum may add   
   >    a little 'noise', but AC/DC cranked to 11 will add   
   >    a lot more.   
   >   
   Many have said that consciousness exists well beyond any of that stuff,   
   and that consciousness is a primary principle of the world.   
      
   We cannot be aware of anything without both something to be aware of,   
   and a mechanism to become aware of it.   
      
   To make that mechanism part of the thing we are aware of is positive   
   feedback of the most vicious sort. Psychic howlround I think Hofstadter   
   called it...   
      
      
   --   
   “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of   
   other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"   
      
       -  John K Galbraith   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)