From: commodorejohn@gmail.com   
      
   On Sat, 07 Feb 2026 15:36:18 +0000   
   Richard Kettlewell  wrote:   
      
   > > It's just arbitrary and weird.     
   >    
   > It’s not like Java has a monopoly on being arbitrary and weird!   
   >    
   > [...]   
   >    
   > I’d suggest that any language that doesn’t start out with odd corners   
   > like this will grow them over time as it responds to new thinking, new   
   > requirements, etc.   
      
   True enough, and it is to some degree a question of taste - but Java   
   does, to my mind, strike a particular balance of vices that remind me   
   of the main thrust of Kernighan's criticism of Pascal: not only does it   
   suffer from misfeatures and frustrations, but it provides no real way   
   to work around them from within itself.   
      
   To a lesser extent, at least; the core language *does* allow the   
   programmer to define new constructs that can be used (to some extent)   
   in place of existing ones, whereas vanilla Pascal didn't. If I don't   
   like the organization of the Math class, f'rexample, I'm free create my   
   own. But there are practical limits to this - I can't snap my fingers   
   and make everything *else* in the standard library recognize MyMath's   
   way of doing things. The deeper some annoyance lies within the system,   
   the more you'd have to uproot in order to fix it.   
      
   And other things *can't* be solved by roll-your-own means. You can't   
   make it less logorrheic or work around the lack of global functions by:   
      
   #define print System.out.println   
      
   ...or somesuch, because Gosling & co. didn't see fit to provide a pre-   
   processor. You could use an external preprocessor, but you'd have to   
   figure out how to fit it into the toolchain yourself.   
      
   All languages are to some extent a reflection of their designers' pre-   
   conceptions about programming (except for the occasional committe-born   
   elephantine monstrosity that tries to encompass every paradigm & please   
   everyone, and is inevitably used by noone,) but the better ones show at   
   least some awareness of the fact that different people will do things   
   differently. Java isn't as blinkered as Pascal was back in the day, but   
   it still strikes me as something that's really only designed for people   
   who think like its designers.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)