From: uhclemLOSE.jan07@nemesis.lonestar.org   
      
   tim lindner  wrote:   
   : So Google Groups is violating your copyright? It fits the definition of   
   : "non-USENET venue" to me.   
      
   First, let me point out that I ran a large USENET service for   
   almost nine years, and so have a very clear understanding of its   
   workings and protocols, and have long-stated opinions on who the   
   original-content posts belong to that are placed there.   
      
      
   Although I don't like how Google tampers with the headers and   
   reformats the body of a USENET post when they present it (I know   
   the DejaNews archive Google bought had that info intact), I consider   
   Google tolerable because they do leave the full body text intact,   
   there is no opportunity for some editor or reviewer to select or   
   cull posts, and there is no modification or ammendment of the body of   
   the post by some editor or reposter.   
      
   Yahoo does cross that line in multiple ways: They require that you   
   subscribe to a private "club" - in some cases my membership must be   
   approved by some faceless group administrator - to even see what is   
   there, messages there were typically uploaded by someone other   
   than the author and that uploader is now listed as the author as far   
   as searching and headers are concerned, and the reposter could have   
   altered or ammended the original text.   
      
      
   Yahoo is not as bad but is in the same category as Compuserve was,   
   who used to allow customers to upload select items, including USENET   
   posts (frequently after alteration), and then Compuserve made these   
   modified texts available ONLY to paying customers.  Collectively,   
   the resulting disregard for ownership by the Compuserve subscribers   
   and Compuserve itself was outright theft.   I suspect that if DMCA   
   existed back then, Compuserve would have been more responsive to   
   removal requests, but the fundamental problem of it not being the   
   original USENET posts being archived remained.   
      
   People who placed their works on a closed site like Compuserve   
   learned this folly when Compuserve claimed the works as their   
   own, and when they folded, access to that archive was lost.   
      
   Further, Yahoo has also demonstrated to me personally (both at   
   Internet Service Provider peer level, and as an individual user) a   
   disregard for addressing such misuses of other peoples works, as   
   well as allowing high volume spammers, scammers and other negative   
   uses of the Internet to live and thrive on their systems thanks to   
   Yahoo basically having a "take-no-action" policy when it comes   
   to abuse reports.  How many times have I received the canned reply   
   from Yahoo saying someone would respond to me about this or that   
   issue within X hours and in some cases I haven't heard back in   
   YEARS because there will never EVER be a reply, frequently because   
   they are in financial collusion with those doing the abuse.   
   I got spam relayed through their mail servers a few hours ago from the   
   same single server at the same IP address I have been reporting   
   for eight months.  Yahoo could have blocked this one IP address ages   
   ago, but they have no plans to do so.   
      
   So as currently operated and under its current policies, Yahoo is not   
   an organization that I want my works associated with.  If I did, I   
   would place my works there myself or authorize someone else to do so.   
      
      
   : I hesitate telling you the method to keep Google from archiving your   
   : messages, becuase I find the Google archive so useful.   
   :   
   : Of course, after a little googling, you'll discover the method yourself.   
      
   See my first comment.  I know what knob you are hinting at.  What you   
   clearly didn't know is that Google IGNORES ALL of the various X-No-Archive   
   headers, keeping and archiving such posts anyway but simply not letting   
   them appear in no-cost search results.  This is an old topic and   
   I don't want to waste time revisiting or re-demonstrating it here.   
      
   Any text post made on USENET will be archived forever by someone,   
   including some governments, schools and businesses.  Move on.   
   If that archive is made available to the public, then the rights   
   of those works stored there become an issue.   
      
   I know that Google will reluctantly comply with a removal request   
   when I deem to make one AND if I can identify each item to be   
   removed.  Whether they actually remove it or simply hide it from   
   all public query is something for the lawyers and lawmakers to   
   debate in the coming decades.   
      
      
   I elect to control re-use and re-distribution of my works, as   
   allowed by law.  Please comply.   
      
      
   Frank Durda IV - send mail to this address and remove the "LOSE":   
       http://nemesis.lonestar.org   
     "The guy that said that the only stupid question is the one that was   
      never asked clearly has never worked a computer center help desk."   
   Copyright 2007, ask before reprinting.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)