Hello Bob,

On Wed 2039-Jan-12 18:06, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB:


BK>>  Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad.
BK>> Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right
BK>> wingers tell us so.

 RW> IT has its downside, I'd agree there, but something *must*
 RW> be done in that region, and the better thing to do is
 RW> provide the troops and resources necessary to do just that.

BK>  Yeah, actually commit to fixing it. Gonna happen this week I 
BK> bet... yeah... sure... I believe it as much as you do.

Nope, I have my doubts.

 RW> PEople who have a future that is other than bleak don't
 RW> have as much motivation to fight to the point of their own
 RW> destruction.

BK>  Yep. Or, as I say it, when they have more to lose than they have 
BK> to gain...

BK>  And if they have nothing to lose then they can do anything for  any
BK> reason.

I've always reminded folks of that little sad fact over the
years.  Don't mess with a guy with nothing to lose.  HE can
go all out.

 RW> That ocean isn't a whole lot of protection these days,
 RW> especially when we listen to folks moan and groan as they
 RW> bring them over here on student visas and whatever else.

BK>  Yeah... that's the point. The ocean stopped being any protection 
BK> at all by WWII.

OF course it did, and we let people in on student visas,
work permits, etc.  that hatred can travel at the speed of
light, and infect a young man who six months later will be
attending school here.  OR, bringing us the next a*** who is interested in
learning to fly jumbo jets but not in how to
land them.

 RW> I've always hoped for that one.  iF that's not what we're
 RW> fighting for I don't want the young folks going there to
 RW> die, for *any* other reason.  NO other reason is worth it

BK>  Exactly.

 RW> imho.  But, now we have a situation where we must do just
 RW> that, because there  are a couple of failed states that
 RW> we've either two choices:  Nation building or annihilation.

We wouldn't be in that mess if we didn't defend despots such as the emir of
Kuwait, the SAudis, etc.

BK>  Yep. Though there is a good chance if we got out of the way they 
BK> could fix it themselves. The Iraqis were saying, if the US
BK>  leaves we will take care of Al Qaeda. They didn't like Al Qaeda 
BK> any more than we did.

WOuld they, or would we just get more TAlibans and Qaedas.
My grandson is very close to fighting age, and unless he
gets lucky with a scholarship he's probably going to be
looking for ways to get that education, and one of them
could be one of the service branches.  NOrmally I'd say he
should do that, but I don't really feel that great about him defending such
pigs as the TAliban or the house of SAud,
unless he'd get to push the obliteration button.

BK>  A local columnist in the Toledo Paper is a native of Pakistan.  He
BK> points out, the military there doesn't much like being jerked 
BK> around by politicians, and they won't care if those politicians 
BK> wear turbans.

Maybe, but if they make alliance with the Qaedas and the
TAliban then we've got one choice, and that's arm India to
the teeth, assist their nuclear program to the help and let
'em get it on.

BK>  We ain't winning there, and just making more enemies.

THat's right, and that's what we've done in that whole
region since Desert STorm.  I never understood why a young
man or woman should go to fight for this emir when the rich
kids from his country partied in EUrope.  MEanwhile a young
man couldn't read Plaboy magazine, a young American soldier
couldn't be seen in town or drive if she chose.  THat isn't
what we stand for here.  One drop of our blood spilled for
that is one drop too many.  IF blood is to be spilled let's
drench that part of the world in it, and get it over with
and bring the young boys and girls home.

 RW> Funny how we went in my little over half a century lifetime
 RW> from being a beacon of freedom and justice to the world to
 RW> being vilified and considered inept.  WHat happened to that
 RW> beacon for liberty and justice we heard about in our civics
 RW> lessons?  IT got snuffed out, and then sold as parts for
 RW> cheap oil.

BK>  Excellent analysis... but... there is hope.

BK>  Worldpublicopinion.org prints results of various polls. They say 
BK> the world's opinion of the US is moving up. We aren't at the top 
BK> yet, but we are moving up.

WE should've never moved down in the first place.  tHough we tried to avoid
WW2 we waded in with both feet when we
finally did, when we were forced in, but FDR understood that day was coming. 
Have been reading a lot of history of the
FDR presidency recently.  that old boy faced some agonizing
choices in the very near future, and accepted that draft to
run again in 40 just because he knew what those choices
meant.

BK>>  The Emir of Kuwait would not have been allowed to return by my
BK>> rules.

 RW> MIne either, but he did return.  Even then I was saying to
 RW> folks that they shouldn't confuse dying for oil with
 RW> fighting for freedom.

BK>  Which, somehow, they got confused about again.

THey never got unconfused Bob.  THe memory of our average
American citizen is quite short, they remember what was on
the tube five minutes ago before they clicked the damn
remote.  Crack a book?  NOt hardly.  that takes some
intellectual engagement.  ONe actually has to engage a few
brain cells to do that, and we're more interested in killing 'em off, or just
turning 'em off.  MOst of our young folks
going over there to possibly die didn't even know where the
hell these places were two days before they shipped out, and didn't care.
I'm sure you've seen those surveys where they walked folks
up to a globe and asked them to "point to your location."

 RW>> There's a thought.  ISI essentially operates with autonomy.

BK>>  Exactly my thought.

YEp, they're the ones that double deal, and will deal with
the  Taliban if they think that's where their advantage
lies.

 RW> Appears they're gonna be running the show in the whole
 RW> country anyway.

BK>  Unless they bring in the Taliban and the military decides to  stop
BK> that.

Maybe, we'll have to wait and see.  From what I understand
ISI basically manipulates the military anyway.

BK>>>  OTOH, we need to rein in India's nuke activities also. Damn so
BK>>> much we need to do.

 RW> RIght, but isn't some of India's nuke activity power
 RW> generation related as well?

BK>  Yep, which is completely within the anti-proliferation rules. 

YEs it is, but easy to go from power generation to enriched
plutonium, etc.



BK>>  I suspect India would still want to be the dominant power so  they
BK>> would keep the nukes. They all need to be under world
BK>>  pressure.

PRobalby, but, consider it from their pov.  Would you want
to give up the ability to annihilate your neighbor if they
give you any guff? This is especially true when your
neighbor is sympathetic to the TAliban, the Qaedas and that
ilk.  I'd want it known that in a moment's notice if you
tick me off you'll die.  I mean every man woman and child.
Were I the Indian government I'd remind them I can always
turn off the tap first, after all, I control the headwaters
of that big river that gives them all that irrigation, and I might just decide
a pretty fountain is more to my liking
than watering your fields folks.
wHen the only tool you've got is a bludgeon ...

 RW> Probably, but if I had to make a choice I'd just as soon
 RW> INdia have the whip hand.

BK>  I'd just as soon the all be forced to keep their hands off each 
BK> other.

Right, but that means a major change in attitude, from the
government, and the populace.  Until that happens I'd just
as soon India have that whip hand.



Regards,
           Richard
... Everybody does better when everybody does better.
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
 * Origin:  (1:116/901)