XPost: rec.food.baking, alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.politics.republicans   
   XPost: alt.politics.homosexuality, misc.legal   
   From: noway@nowhere.com   
      
   On 9/7/2018 11:33 AM, Peter Franks wrote:   
   > On 9/6/2018 7:05 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:   
   >> On 9/6/2018 3:05 PM, Peter Franks wrote:   
   >>> On 9/2/2018 10:33 AM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:   
   >>>> On 9/2/2018 10:03 AM, Peter Franks wrote:   
   >>>>> On 9/1/2018 6:35 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 9/1/2018 5:59 PM, Peter Franks wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On 9/1/2018 4:01 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On 9/1/2018 1:09 PM, Peter Franks wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> {snip}   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> A couple of points that need clarifying:   
   >>>>>>>>>   - Government does not have authority over individuals, it has   
   >>>>>>>>> been delegated authority /from/ individuals.   
   >>>>>>>>>   - That authority is to exercise, in a general sense and   
   >>>>>>>>> purpose, the powers and authority of the individual.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Regarding obligations:   
   >>>>>>>>>   - The obligations of the individual are few and defined, and   
   >>>>>>>>> that is to support and sustain the execution of the authority   
   >>>>>>>>> that has been legally and justly delegated.  No more, no less.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> An example: the authority to protect the sovereignty of the   
   >>>>>>>>> nation has been delegated to government.  Therefore, _every_   
   >>>>>>>>> individual is equally obligated to support and sustain that   
   >>>>>>>>> protection.  It is up to the people of that society to define   
   >>>>>>>>> that equal obligation (e.g. it could be that all serve in the   
   >>>>>>>>> armed forces for some period of time, and/or individuals are   
   >>>>>>>>> obligated to financially support the maintenance and execution   
   >>>>>>>>> of the armed forces (i.e. taxes), or ....). If an individual   
   >>>>>>>>> refuses their obligation, they are subject to punishment or   
   >>>>>>>>> removal from society.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> That's one example.  Since they are few and defined, what is the   
   >>>>>>>> exhaustive list of obligations?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> For us, US Constitution.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> So for example, Social Security taxation in order to provide for   
   >>>>>> the general welfare has been delegated to government and   
   >>>>>> individuals are obligated to pay taxes for that purpose?   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> No, no such authority exists (i.e. forcing a person to provide for   
   >>>>> the welfare of their self or others), therefore it can't be   
   >>>>> delegated to government.  Our government, using legislative   
   >>>>> authority it doesn't have, created the SS welfare program.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> This is why I've argued with you on numerous times about the   
   >>>>> General Welfare clause.  It pertains to, and ONLY to the welfare of   
   >>>>> the nation (government), not the people.  Individuals have no   
   >>>>> authority over others, therefore welfare by compulsion can't be   
   >>>>> delegated and necessarily constricts the interpretation of the GW   
   >>>>> clause.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Now can we agree that no individual has authority over another?   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> We have always agreed on that.  Where we disagree is the scope   
   >>>>>>>> of government's delegated authority over individuals.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> If an individual doesn't have authority over another, how can   
   >>>>>>> authority over another be delegated to government?  It can't,   
   >>>>>>> ergo government has no authority over individuals.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Let me rephrase.  We agree no individual has authority over   
   >>>>>> another. Where we disagree is the scope of what has been legally   
   >>>>>> and justly delegated to the government.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> If we agree on the former, the latter is self-evident.  Since we   
   >>>>> don't agree on the latter, we de facto don't agree on the former.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Take your above example of SS.  You argue that it is just and   
   >>>>> authorized via the General Welfare clause.  In order to do so, you   
   >>>>> must assume that an individual DOES have authority over another (in   
   >>>>> that they can compel one person to provide for the welfare of   
   >>>>> another AND that you can compel that individual to provide for the   
   >>>>> welfare of their self).   
   >>>>   
   >>>> My example (Social Security) is no different than your example (the   
   >>>> military draft).   
   >>>   
   >>> Absolutely not.  Welfare of the nation has nothing to do with welfare   
   >>> of the individual.   
   >>   
   >> On this point, we disagree.   
   >   
   > Back to our simplification (the three of us):   
   >   
   > Do any of us have the authority to compel any other to provide for the   
   > welfare of someone else?   
   >   
   > Do any of us have the authority to compel someone to provide for their   
   > self?   
      
   Those questions aren't relevant to our disagreement as to whether the   
   welfare of the nation has nothing to do with welfare of the individual.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
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