BK>> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any
  BK>> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a
  BK>> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long
  BK>> time, is not a govt I believe is honest.

 AK> I believe you can hardly imagine a situation when some Arab
 AK> girls in frivolous, "ala gay parade" style clothes rush
 AK> into the main Jerusalem synagogue and start singing "Allah,
 AK> kill infidels?" Jews, I believe, can understand that such
 AK> an act is criminal and completely unacceptable. But

 Which would require maybe 30 days. Not several years.

 BTW, how about, "God" do whatever, which is what Arab girls
 would say. Well, if they spoke English.

 Does that apply to the protest Pussy Riot being attacked with
 whips in Sochi last February?

 BTW, you chose the worst possible example when you chose Israel.
 These were not foreign or even anti-Russian protestors, they are
 Russians, and they didn't sing anything about killing innocents,
 but a protest against Putin.

 Which would be closer to Jews going into a Synogague and singing
 a protest against Netanyahu. And there are plenty of Jews who
 oppose Netanyahu.

 AK> Americans think that it was OK, just because they had lost
 AK> the true faith in God.

 Russians spent 7 decades without recognition of God and couldn't
 fix that. Americans have as much faith in God as Russians do,
 which is damning with faint praise.

 AK> It is now all the same for them -- a
 AK> gay parade in a street or a fucking mess in the main
 AK> cathedral. It must be equally allowed. Well, at least in
 AK> Russia. ;)

 Real freedom means a gay parade must be tolerated. As to singing
 in a cathedral, how is that a fucking mess? So they get thrown
 out. If they have been praising Putin they would probably get a
 medal.

 ...

  AK>>> Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of Russian
  AK>>> tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.

  BK>> Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops
  BK>> and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently been
  BK>> withdrawn.

 AK> But now it is too early to speak in this way, and your
 AK> comparisons are false. The only correct comparison is
 AK> comparing the situation in Ukraine with the situation in
 AK> Yugoslavia after some areas of it declared a separation.

 Not really. Not is, "as is widely believed, Russia is sending in
 provacatuers to instigate unrest, and soldiers to fight there.
 They have admitted they are there, but claim they are
 volunteers. What would even volunteers be doing there?

 What part of Yugoslavia became part of Russia? I don't recall.


 AK> Until the civil war Yugoslavia's borders and integrity were
 AK> also recognized across the world.

 And what part of Yougoslavia asked to be admitted to Russia?

  BK>> What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states
  BK>> reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union.
  BK>> That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid, including
  BK>> the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few years ago.

 AK> Many territories of the former USSR have still been closely
 AK> related with each other as economically as in other areas.

 Irrelevent.

 AK> Actually, until last time, eastern Ukraine was separated
 AK> from Russia only formally. In reality, all the eastern
 AK> Ukraine plants continued working with Russian plants, there
 AK> was no real border, people could freely move from one
 AK> country to another. The same things are now with
 AK> Byelorussia, Kazakhstan and some other former USSR
 AK> republics.

 Even you just referred to them as "republics".

 AK> Putin has invented nothing. It is a lie, that
 AK> all people of the republics of the USSR hated each other
 AK> and had nothing in common. So, it is a natural idea to
 AK> legalize things that have always been and have existed now.

 Since no one said that, it is meaningless. Though I am sure many
 did hate Russia, that does not mean they hated each other.

  AK>>> Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you think that
  AK>>> Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia?

  BK>> I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is
  BK>> when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked
  BK>> gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are they
  BK>> masked?

 AK> Well, if you had seen the Maidan rebellion in Kiev you
 AK> could have also seen the rebels wearing masks. It is
 AK> natural for this kind of events. These people have
 AK> relatives, they are not sure that the secret police will
 AK> not come to their homes during the night.

 It is Russia that is famous for "secret police".

 AK> You can also note that the police across all the world now
 AK> uses modern technology - it photographs all the
 AK> demonstrators, rebels so to create a special database for
 AK> future arrests and repressions.

 If they don't have a constitution with a court system that
 vigorously enforces freedom of speech, that is a problem.

 That takes us back to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly.

  BK>> If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a
  BK>> problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by masked
  BK>> gunmen.

 AK> The modern Ukraine mentality cannot accept that some people
 AK> might have a desire to divorce and live separately. It is

 And how does that justify Russian interference?

 AK> like (in some Asian countries) women are not allowed to
 AK> divorce on their own will.

 No, it is not like that at all.

 AK> Compare: Divorce in Saudi Arabia
 AK> http://saudiwoman.me/2009/04/07/divorce-in-saudi-arabia/

 No, I won't.

  AK>>> It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting in eastern Ukraine. It
  AK>>> is the Russian people who always lived there, in eastern and

 ...

  BK>> Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and killing
  BK>> people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how many Russian
  BK>> people live there? And why are Russians living in Ukraine and
  BK>> claiming the right to decide who rules the country?

 AK> There are 8-9 million Russians in Ukraine. It is incorrect
 AK> to call them killers or terrorists, as the present
 AK> authority does. More of that -- it is a gruesome propaganda

 Yet they have been killing people. Some of them. If the rest of
 the 8-9 million Russians don't agree with that, then what is the
 basis for it being done?

 AK> and a lie. Russian people started their protests in the
 AK> same lawless way the pro-western activists started their
 AK> activity in Kiev -- noisy defiant demonstrations, capturing
 AK> municipal buildings, dispersing the police etc. Yanukovich
 AK> refused to shoot people in Kiev (my respect to him for

 IOW, it wasn't a violent protest.

 AK> that!), but after the western rebels had come to power in
 AK> Kiev they shamelessly started to use a brutal force against
 AK> eastern protesters. After some victims the wheel of a civil
 AK> war had started its rotation. Blood is a perfect lubricant
 AK> for it.

 So, why are Russian "volunteers" involved? 8-9 million Russians
 living there should be enough to handle it.

  AK>>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured power by force,
  AK>>> violating all democratic institutions and election results.

  BK>> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.

 AK> The Kiev police just guarded government buildings from the
 AK> rebels. Actually, there was only one attempt to clear
 AK> Maidan -- when Yanukovich was on his foreign visit. The

 Ya know, if you include links to your sources I can look at
 them. It's legal here.

 AK> police had cleared Maidan during a half-an-hour. But there
 AK> was outcry about democracy violation and the demonstrators
 AK> were allowed to come back. After that the police looked
 AK> like lamp posts and were burned alive with Molotov
 AK> cocktails.

 I saw one video of police vehicles driving into the protest
 lines, and getting molotov cocktails in return.

  BK>> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten after
  BK>> Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention or such,
  BK>> but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding the
  BK>> previous constitution be reinstated.

 AK> After wining the 2010 elections Yanukovich was the
 AK> legitimate state leader and, besides, the leader of the
 AK> biggest parliamentarian coalition. They had all rights to
 AK> do the changes they wanted. It is democracy. If another

 Nowhere in any democracy I am familiar with does the winner get
 to rewrite the constitution just like that.

 AK> party had won elections they could have do the same. They
 AK> could join to Devil or so -- it would also a legal choice.
 AK> The legal majority in Kiev was removed from parliament by
 AK> force and threats.

 Once they rewrote the constitution they ceased to be the legal
 authority.

 AK> That's why many in the east of the Ukraine (Yanukovich's
 AK> electorate) consider the Kiev's events as an illegal cope
 AK> and don't want to obey the new power.

 Or they are Russian instigators.

  BK>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
  BK>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830

  BK>> But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them
  BK>> protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of bloodshed,
  BK>> that ultimately brought him down.
  BK>> ----------------------------------------------------------------

 AK> Can you pay attention that "many of them were protesters"?
 AK> Who were the others? They were the police. They police
 AK> returned fire only after they got under a sniper fire and
 AK> lost a dozen of people. If the police had not shot with

 You don't shoot innocent protestors to get revenge. And the 88
 they are talking about were killed by police. Like the US Kent
 State incident, during the Vietnam war, you can get innocent
 bystanders killed when you fire on protestors.

 AK> live ammunition for four or five months of the rebellion -
 AK> what an event could provoke them to fire? Especially when

 Losing the fight for public support could.

 AK> an agreement with Yanukovich had been achieved? I strongly
 AK> believe that some people in Maidan square did not want a
 AK> peaceful solution. And they derailed the agreement in a
 AK> most outrageous way.

 Which does not mean the people who derailed it weren't the
 police.

 AK> 
  BK>> Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted to
  BK>> cut the Ukraine up.

 AK> Such events as a rule are made by small but active groups.
 AK> Such a thing happened in Kiev, such a thing happened in
 AK> eastern Ukraine. Russia has played a small role -- eastern
 AK> rebels had quickly captured a lot of modern weapon and even
 AK> some military bases. So now they are a force and if

 Rebelious private citizens don't capture weapons and bases from
 the military without help.

 AK> somebody don't want to spill blood or fight with them they
 AK> must negotiate with them and, first, to stop call them
 AK> terrorists and bandits. How easily some people can use such
 AK> marks and tags!

 Who is calling them terrorists and bandits? No one here I know
 of.

 AK> 

  BK>> On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in the
  BK>> Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian leadership was
  BK>> installed. Then the regional parliament voted behind closed doors
  BK>> for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join Russia, setting a referendum
  BK>> for Sunday to validate their decision.

 AK> It doesn't matter who were that gunmen.  Even id they
 AK> guarded that meeting, surely the situation was not like in
 AK> a Moscow theater which was captured by terrorists in 2002.

 Unless those terrorists were Ukrainians your point is a
 diversion.

 AK> And at last about the referendum. It was open and honest.
 AK> Everybody voted as he wanted. Those who chose not to vote
 AK> (many of the 13% Tatar population, for instance) were free
 AK> in making their choice, and their votes were taken into
 AK> account and not hidden. Everybody in the Crimea had an
 AK> opportunity to express his choice.

 Which requires outside observers to verify. Who was observing?

 AK> A NATO's general whined bitterly that the Crimea referendum
 AK> "was held under Russian gun barrrels," but it is more fare
 AK> to say that the last Ukraine elections were held under the
 AK> gun barrels of Ukraine's army, at least in the east. What

 Do you have a link to refer to on that?

 AK> kind of fare elections can be in a country with a civil
 AK> war? BTW, it is exactly the same reason why the latest
 AK> elections in Syria were declared illegal  by the West.
 AK> Double standards?

 Do you see the Ukraine army fighting itself in this war? Who is
 the other army?



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... ... Millions for comfort. Not one cent for truth.
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