Hi, BOB KLAHN!
I read your message from 17.07.2014 02:16

  BK>>> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any
  BK>>> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a
  BK>>> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long
  BK>>> time, is not a govt I believe is honest.

  AK>> I believe you can hardly imagine a situation when some Arab girls
  AK>> in frivolous, "ala gay parade" style clothes rush into the main
  AK>> Jerusalem synagogue and start singing "Allah, kill infidels?"
  AK>> Jews, I believe, can understand that such an act is criminal and
  AK>> completely unacceptable. But

  BK> Which would require maybe 30 days. Not several years.

Maybe it is correct that the scale of the insult had been taken into 
account. One thing, when you insulted a few passengers in the bus. 30 
days of detention is a just term. Another thing, when you desecrated the 
main state cathedral and insulted millions of believers.

I don't believe that they were imprisoned for their chanting "Mother of 
God, remove Putin from Russia." If they had said it loudly, without that 
fucking fuss, they would not have been taken in court.

  BK> Does that apply to the protest Pussy Riot being attacked with whips
  BK> in Sochi last February?

There are hooligans in any part of politics or culture. Some local 
Cossack went go beyond their commission when they had seen that the 
girls were going to undertake another performance. But surely, that 
whipping was to scare the girls. I think you understand well that if the 
girls had had the traces of whipping on the bodies they would have 
interneted them out instantly.


  AK>> It is now all the same for them -- a gay parade in a street or a
  AK>> fucking mess in the main cathedral. It must be equally allowed.
  AK>> Well, at least in Russia. ;)

  BK> Real freedom means a gay parade must be tolerated. As to singing in
  BK> a cathedral, how is that a fucking mess? So they get thrown out. If
  BK> they have been praising Putin they would probably get a medal.

Every culture has its own understanding about limitations the people 
must impose on themselves voluntarily. Such limitations define 
civilization. Such a thing cannot be universal. For instance, in the US 
Madonna glints with its naked hams and the crowd roars, but in some 
countries she is seen disdainfully, like a prostitute.


  AK>> But now it is too early to speak in this way, and your comparisons
  AK>> are false. The only correct comparison is comparing the situation
  AK>> in Ukraine with the situation in Yugoslavia after some areas of it
  AK>> declared a separation.

  BK> Not really. Not is, "as is widely believed, Russia is sending in
  BK> provacatuers to instigate unrest, and soldiers to fight there. They
  BK> have admitted they are there, but claim they are volunteers. What
  BK> would even volunteers be doing there?

Russia sends nobody, at least nobody can prove it by facts. Volunteers 
penetrate into Ukraine themselves. As you know well until recent time 
the border between Ukraine and Russia was just a scratch on the map.

  AK>> Until the civil war Yugoslavia's borders and integrity were also
  AK>> recognized across the world.
  BK> And what part of Yougoslavia asked to be admitted to Russia?

Ukraine fights with sepatist in its east. Yugoslavia fought with 
separatist on its west. That is the only difference. The main question 
is should a country kill thousand of people for their desire to live 
separately? Should the US or other country in the 21st century think 
that such killings are OK?


  AK>> There are 8-9 million Russians in Ukraine. It is incorrect to call
  AK>> them killers or terrorists, as the present authority does. More of
  AK>> that -- it is a gruesome propaganda

  BK> Yet they have been killing people. Some of them. If the rest of the
  BK> 8-9 million Russians don't agree with that, then what is the basis
  BK> for it being done?

Separatist fighters in Ukraine have a wide support of the population. 
Especially now after hundreds of civilians were killed by the Ukraine's 
army.


  AK>> that!), but after the western rebels had come to power in Kiev
  AK>> they shamelessly started to use a brutal force against eastern
  AK>> protesters. After some victims the wheel of a civil war had
  AK>> started its rotation. Blood is a perfect lubricant for it.

  BK> So, why are Russian "volunteers" involved? 8-9 million Russians
  BK> living there should be enough to handle it.

The great amount of volunteers from Russia is the Ukraine's propaganda 
invention. There are no trustworthy numbers.

I think the number of volunteers from Russia is small. The reason is 
simple - what Russia is going to do by sending a small number of troops 
into Ukraine? Does it want to conquer Ukraine in such a way? No chances. 
The fighting in Ukraine has some sense only in the case that the local 
people form the bulk of fighters, and they are ready to fight for their 
freedom to the end.


  AK>>>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured power by force,
  AK>>>> violating all democratic institutions and election results.

  BK>>> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.

  AK>> The Kiev police just guarded government buildings from the rebels.
  AK>> Actually, there was only one attempt to clear Maidan -- when
  AK>> Yanukovich was on his foreign visit. The

  BK> Ya know, if you include links to your sources I can look at them.
  BK> It's legal here.

Read
[[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_November_2013_attack_on_prote
ters#30_November_attack_on_protesters
30 November attack on protesters]]]

  AK>> police had cleared Maidan during a half-an-hour. But there was
  AK>> outcry about democracy violation and the demonstrators were
  AK>> allowed to come back. After that the police looked like lamp posts
  AK>> and were burned alive with Molotov cocktails.

  BK> I saw one video of police vehicles driving into the protest lines,
  BK> and getting molotov cocktails in return.

I saw million time when American police drives into the protest lines, 
but I never saw molotov cocktails in return. ;-) It is probably double 
standards.

  BK>>> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten
  BK>>> after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention
  BK>>> or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding
  BK>>> the previous constitution be reinstated.

  AK>> After wining the 2010 elections Yanukovich was the legitimate
  AK>> state leader and, besides, the leader of the biggest
  AK>> parliamentarian coalition. They had all rights to do the changes
  AK>> they wanted. It is democracy. If another

  BK> Nowhere in any democracy I am familiar with does the winner get to
  BK> rewrite the constitution just like that.

Well, the new president Poroshenko promotes his variant of new 
constitution. It is also different from 2004 variant. New countries 
(like Ukraine) always construct new constitutes often.



  BK> Rebelious private citizens don't capture weapons and bases from the
  BK> military without help.

It is possible when military refuse to shoot protesters.

  AK>> somebody don't want to spill blood or fight with them they must
  AK>> negotiate with them and, first, to stop call them terrorists and
  AK>> bandits. How easily some people can use such marks and tags!

  BK> Who is calling them terrorists and bandits? No one here I know of.

Ukraine authority call them always in such a way. The war operation in 
the Ukraine's east is called "ATO" -- anti terrorist operation.


  AK>> And at last about the referendum. It was open and honest.
  AK>> Everybody voted as he wanted. Those who chose not to vote (many of
  AK>> the 13% Tatar population, for instance) were free in making their
  AK>> choice, and their votes were taken into account and not hidden.
  AK>> Everybody in the Crimea had an opportunity to express his choice.

  BK> Which requires outside observers to verify. Who was observing?

All who wanted to. EU declared the referendum illegal and refused to 
send its observers. But any way there were many observers there.

  AK>> A NATO's general whined bitterly that the Crimea referendum "was
  AK>> held under Russian gun barrels," but it is more fare to say that
  AK>> the last Ukraine elections were held under the gun barrels of
  AK>> Ukraine's army, at least in the east. What

  BK> Do you have a link to refer to on that?

Search materials about Civil war in Ukraine. Is is possible to do 
elections when one part of a coutry fights with the other?

  AK>> kind of fare elections can be in a country with a civil war? BTW,
  AK>> it is exactly the same reason why the latest elections in Syria
  AK>> were declared illegal by the West. Double standards?

  BK> Do you see the Ukraine army fighting itself in this war? Who is the
  BK> other army?

Thousands of heavy armed insurgents?

Bye, BOB!
Alexander Koryagin
fido7.debate 2014
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