Hello Alexander,

 BK>>>> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any
 BK>>>> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a
 BK>>>> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long
 BK>>>> time, is not a govt I believe is honest.

 AK>>> I believe you can hardly imagine a situation when some Arab girls
 AK>>> in frivolous, "ala gay parade" style clothes rush into the main
 AK>>> Jerusalem synagogue and start singing "Allah, kill infidels?"
 AK>>> Jews, I believe, can understand that such an act is criminal and
 AK>>> completely unacceptable. But

 BK>> Which would require maybe 30 days. Not several years.

 ak> Maybe it is correct that the scale of the insult had been taken into
 ak> account. One thing, when you insulted a few passengers in the bus. 30
 ak> days of detention is a just term. Another thing, when you desecrated the
 ak> main state cathedral and insulted millions of believers.

I got in a bit of trouble some years ago for doing something in
church a priest thought was sacriligious.  It was a Sunday, and
that particular Sunday was March 17.  When it came time for communion,
the priest started placing those wafers in the mouths and hands of the
faithful, and his face suddenly turned ghastly white when he discovered
those wafers were a very pale shade of green.

It was the last time I ever served as altar boy, even though
I did have permission from the bishop to dye the wafers green
for St. Patrick's Day.

 ak> I don't believe that they were imprisoned for their chanting "Mother of
 ak> God, remove Putin from Russia." If they had said it loudly, without that
 ak> fucking fuss, they would not have been taken in court.

I got thrown out of a chapel on campus when I was a college student
for having lined the priest's chalice with jalapeno pepper juice.
The priest knew it was me after drinking the wine during Mass.
Not sure how he knew it was me, but he knew.  ;)

 BK>> Does that apply to the protest Pussy Riot being attacked with whips
 BK>> in Sochi last February?

 ak> There are hooligans in any part of politics or culture. Some local
 ak> Cossack went go beyond their commission when they had seen that the
 ak> girls were going to undertake another performance. But surely, that
 ak> whipping was to scare the girls. I think you understand well that if the
 ak> girls had had the traces of whipping on the bodies they would have
 ak> interneted them out instantly.

So the girls were into BDSM ...

 AK>>> It is now all the same for them -- a gay parade in a street or a
 AK>>> fucking mess in the main cathedral. It must be equally allowed.
 AK>>> Well, at least in Russia. ;)

You should go to Mass at St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans.
Located in the French Quarter.  Not only do tourists attend Mass,
but also locals, including strippers, gays, lesbians, people of
all kinds and nationalities.

 BK>> Real freedom means a gay parade must be tolerated. As to singing in
 BK>> a cathedral, how is that a fucking mess? So they get thrown out. If
 BK>> they have been praising Putin they would probably get a medal.

 ak> Every culture has its own understanding about limitations the people
 ak> must impose on themselves voluntarily. Such limitations define
 ak> civilization. Such a thing cannot be universal. For instance, in the US
 ak> Madonna glints with its naked hams and the crowd roars, but in some
 ak> countries she is seen disdainfully, like a prostitute.

I have met Madonna.  At Molly's Bar in New Orleans.  She had
just finished giving a performance at the Superdome.  Dressed
in a trench coat, donning a pair a dark sunglasses, wearing
a fedora.  At way past midnight.  And believe me when I tell
you, her two beefy bodyguards made sure I treated her like
a virgin.

 AK>>> But now it is too early to speak in this way, and your comparisons
 AK>>> are false. The only correct comparison is comparing the situation
 AK>>> in Ukraine with the situation in Yugoslavia after some areas of it
 AK>>> declared a separation.

 BK>> Not really. Not is, "as is widely believed, Russia is sending in
 BK>> provacatuers to instigate unrest, and soldiers to fight there. They
 BK>> have admitted they are there, but claim they are volunteers. What
 BK>> would even volunteers be doing there?

 ak> Russia sends nobody, at least nobody can prove it by facts. Volunteers
 ak> penetrate into Ukraine themselves. As you know well until recent time
 ak> the border between Ukraine and Russia was just a scratch on the map.

Russian security will keep all investigators safe from harm.
Putin is former KGB man.  He make sure no mistakes happen.

 AK>>> Until the civil war Yugoslavia's borders and integrity were also
 AK>>> recognized across the world.
 BK>> And what part of Yougoslavia asked to be admitted to Russia?

 ak> Ukraine fights with sepatist in its east. Yugoslavia fought with
 ak> separatist on its west. That is the only difference. The main question
 ak> is should a country kill thousand of people for their desire to live
 ak> separately? Should the US or other country in the 21st century think
 ak> that such killings are OK?

The better question would be -

Should a country kill thousands of own people for their desire
to live separately?

Case in point: The US Civil War 1861-1865

 AK>>> There are 8-9 million Russians in Ukraine. It is incorrect to call
 AK>>> them killers or terrorists, as the present authority does. More of
 AK>>> that -- it is a gruesome propaganda

 BK>> Yet they have been killing people. Some of them. If the rest of the
 BK>> 8-9 million Russians don't agree with that, then what is the basis
 BK>> for it being done?

 ak> Separatist fighters in Ukraine have a wide support of the population.
 ak> Especially now after hundreds of civilians were killed by the Ukraine's
 ak> army.

Confederate fighters in the South had wide support of the population,
even after hundreds of civilians were killed by the Union's army.

See how that works?  The US knows how to play this game, having had
experience with such matters.  ;)

 AK>>> that!), but after the western rebels had come to power in Kiev
 AK>>> they shamelessly started to use a brutal force against eastern
 AK>>> protesters. After some victims the wheel of a civil war had
 AK>>> started its rotation. Blood is a perfect lubricant for it.

 BK>> So, why are Russian "volunteers" involved? 8-9 million Russians
 BK>> living there should be enough to handle it.

 ak> The great amount of volunteers from Russia is the Ukraine's propaganda
 ak> invention. There are no trustworthy numbers.

There is much propaganda from all sides being spouted about.
Who knows what is going on?  Only the participants themselves.
And even they may not know themselves, except only a fraction of
what is going on or why.

 ak> I think the number of volunteers from Russia is small. The reason is
 ak> simple - what Russia is going to do by sending a small number of troops
 ak> into Ukraine? Does it want to conquer Ukraine in such a way? No chances.
 ak> The fighting in Ukraine has some sense only in the case that the local
 ak> people form the bulk of fighters, and they are ready to fight for their
 ak> freedom to the end.

Freedom?  What freedom?  Whose freedom?  Getting somebody to die
for somebody else is what rich old men who want to get richer try
to think up every day.

As for most folks, freedom is just another word for nothing left
to lose.  And that ain't much, in today's world.

 AK>>>>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured power by force,
 AK>>>>> violating all democratic institutions and election results.

 BK>>>> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.

 AK>>> The Kiev police just guarded government buildings from the rebels.
 AK>>> Actually, there was only one attempt to clear Maidan -- when
 AK>>> Yanukovich was on his foreign visit. The

 BK>> Ya know, if you include links to your sources I can look at them.
 BK>> It's legal here.

 ak> Read
 ak> [[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_November_2013_attack_on_
rotesters#30_November_attack_on_protesters
 ak> 30 November attack on protesters]]]

 AK>>> police had cleared Maidan during a half-an-hour. But there was
 AK>>> outcry about democracy violation and the demonstrators were
 AK>>> allowed to come back. After that the police looked like lamp posts
 AK>>> and were burned alive with Molotov cocktails.

 BK>> I saw one video of police vehicles driving into the protest lines,
 BK>> and getting molotov cocktails in return.

 ak> I saw million time when American police drives into the protest lines,
 ak> but I never saw molotov cocktails in return. ;-) It is probably double
 ak> standards.

American protesters prefer to burn American flags rather than throw
molotov cocktails.  You do know why American protesters burn American
flags, don't you?  Because American flags are made in China.  And
Americans want to buy products made in the USA.  As such, those
American protesters are patriots, not traitors.  But tell that to
FoxNews ...

 BK>>>> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten
 BK>>>> after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention
 BK>>>> or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding
 BK>>>> the previous constitution be reinstated.

 AK>>> After wining the 2010 elections Yanukovich was the legitimate
 AK>>> state leader and, besides, the leader of the biggest
 AK>>> parliamentarian coalition. They had all rights to do the changes
 AK>>> they wanted. It is democracy. If another

 BK>> Nowhere in any democracy I am familiar with does the winner get to
 BK>> rewrite the constitution just like that.

 ak> Well, the new president Poroshenko promotes his variant of new
 ak> constitution. It is also different from 2004 variant. New countries
 ak> (like Ukraine) always construct new constitutes often.

The people of Ukraine have every right to write a new constitution.
Whenever they feel like it.

 BK>> Rebelious private citizens don't capture weapons and bases from the
 BK>> military without help.

 ak> It is possible when military refuse to shoot protesters.

Students at Kent State University had no intention of capturing
weapons and bases from the military ...

 AK>>> somebody don't want to spill blood or fight with them they must
 AK>>> negotiate with them and, first, to stop call them terrorists and
 AK>>> bandits. How easily some people can use such marks and tags!

 BK>> Who is calling them terrorists and bandits? No one here I know of.

 ak> Ukraine authority call them always in such a way. The war operation in
 ak> the Ukraine's east is called "ATO" -- anti terrorist operation.

Taking up arms against the government is a criminal act.
Unless the terrorists are successful, in which case they
become patriots who have done nothing wrong.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." - Anon

 AK>>> And at last about the referendum. It was open and honest.
 AK>>> Everybody voted as he wanted. Those who chose not to vote (many of
 AK>>> the 13% Tatar population, for instance) were free in making their
 AK>>> choice, and their votes were taken into account and not hidden.
 AK>>> Everybody in the Crimea had an opportunity to express his choice.

 BK>> Which requires outs"Oide observers to verify. Who was observing?

 ak> All who wanted to. EU declared the referendum illegal and refused to
 ak> send its observers. But any way there were many observers there.

There are watchers.  But who is watching the watchers?

 AK>>> kind of fare elections can be in a country with a civil war? BTW,
 AK>>> it is exactly the same reason why the latest elections in Syria
 AK>>> were declared illegal by the West. Double standards?

 BK>> Do you see the Ukraine army fighting itself in this war? Who is the
 BK>> other army?

 ak> Thousands of heavy armed insurgents?

The Ukraine military is winning this one, having taken back
over half the territory the "insurgents" had occupied.

--Lee

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
 * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)