Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 27.10.2015 20:27

  ak>> keep them together as a state. When the results of elections were
  ak>> tramped by the Kiev's events in 2014 it became clear that the only
  ak>> way available for such an Ukraine is not a building of a strong
  ak>> single state, but a war. Those Americans (senator Mc Cain - you
  ak>> are the first!) who inspired Ukrainian people to overthrow the
  ak>> elected President and Government are actually responsible for the
  ak>> blood that flows there now.

  LL> Partitions have never worked. In any area of the world. At no time
  LL> in history.

The matter is not in partitions themselves, but in people's mind. Like 
some atoms are stable, but some tend to fall apart. If two part of 
population extremely don't like each other and want to separate it is 
better to separate. It will be a natural and therefore long-life 
separation. For instance, the US, Australia, India etc separated from 
Britain healthily. It would have been bad if Britain had managed to 
drown them in blood and remain unity.

But when separation is made only by fucking ambitious politicians (like 
Yeltsin, Yatsenuk etc( it is unhealthy separation. The USSR had 
separated mostly in this way. That's why gravity between 
eastern/southern Ukraine and Russia is much stronger than it is with 
western part of Ukraine. _Every healthy country should have its own 
gravity center_ which attracts all the country.

  LL> The division in Vietnam did not last. The division in Korea will
  LL> one day come to an end.

These divisions were made by politicians. Vietnam parts remained close 
mentally. That's why their integration was very probable. Korea's parts 
became very different and most probably incompatible.

  LL> The division in Palestine will also come to an end at some point in
  LL> time.

No, the hatred polarized people there, and ultra-nationalists are still 
in power.

  LL> India and Pakistan will not be divided forever over Kashmir
  LL> (although Muslims and Hindus will remain divided forever). Ireland
  LL> and Northern Ireland will one day rejoin as one.

No chance if the occupants outnumber the local people greatly.

  LL> Yet we see the possible partition of not only Ukraine, but also
  LL> Syria, taking place.

Syria was made artificially from different people groups. It was OK, 
when the Arabs were peaceful shepherds.

  NS>>> You're Vladimir Putin and you cannot allow Ukraine to join either
  NS>>> NATO or the European Union. And you won't. The military force you
  NS>>> have assembled on its eastern borders is the stick. But once
  NS>>> there is a Ukrainian government you can deal with, you have an
  NS>>> even mightier carrot to wield.

  ak>> It's is provocative and mean to compare Ukraine with an animal
  ak>> that is directed by Russia with a carrot. The main concern of
  ak>> Russia is millions of (Russian) Ukrainians that do not support the
  ak>> things that happened in Kiev in the spring of 2014. Actually when
  ak>> President Yanukovich was overthrown by the crowd in Kiev, these
  ak>> people were robbed of their choice and their right to choose their
  ak>> destiny.

  LL> The people want peace, not war. For decades the people of Ukraine
  LL> were at peace with both themselves and their neighbors. What
  LL> happened? How did the people of Ukraine suddenly find themselves at
  LL> odds with not just themselves, but everybody else as well?

Ukraine is a formation of two groups of people with different mentality. 
West and east of the Ukraine historically rejected each other. Such a 
union cannot be stable.

Well, it is like a surgeon creates a man from two bodies, that are 
incompatible with each other. Rejection is the most probable scenario, 
and if there is no rejection then there is a pain in the ass. I mean 
that is like the situation in Ukraine looks like now.


  ak>> The problem is not is Crimea, the problem is in the inhabitant of
  ak>> the Crimea. The West must understand that it is a propaganda lie
  ak>> that those people had voted for separation from Ukraine under
  ak>> Russia's threats and gun barrels. The West must understand that
  ak>> even the bitter truth is better than a lie. The West must
  ak>> understand what the Crimean population really think about the
  ak>> situation on the peninsula. Then it will stop save these people
  ak>> from themselves.

  LL> I do not know, and can only venture to guess, but the population of
  LL> Crimea (before any vote was taken) was probably 90% to 95% Russian
  LL> speakers. Am I right? I'm willing to bet I am not far off.

Yes, and imagine that this people were not allowed to have as little as 
street plates on their houses in Russian.

  LL> Language defines a culture of a people. I know this being Cajun. It
  LL> is not about race or nationality. Society and culture are two
  LL> different things.

Language and also history. Crimea is a part of Russia's history, at 
least for three centuries.

  NS>>> You're Vladimir Putin, formerly of the KGB. You're Vladimir
  NS>>> Putin, and if you've learned nothing else there, you've learned
  NS>>> how to make an offer that can't be refused.

  ak>> If the US thinks that Ukrainian should join the West they should
  ak>> give the same right to the second part of Ukraine, which wants
  ak>> another way. That will be democracy. We live in 21st century, and
  ak>> we should accept divorces rather that killing our wives when they
  ak>> are going to leave us.

  LL> Ukraine must be allowed to be Ukraine. Nobody is boss of Ukrainians
  LL> except Ukrainians themselves. As such, Ukrainians must be allowed
  LL> to decide their own future. For themselves.

Yes, but in the latest 2015 regional elections the party of power has 
gained just 20%. It is the result without the people of Crimea and 
Dombass who didn't participate.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido7.debate 2015
--- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
 * Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)