XPost: linux.debian.devel, linux.debian.devel.release   
   From: bunk@debian.org   
      
   On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 01:21:29PM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:   
   > Hi   
      
   Hi Bastian,   
      
   > We never did a real discussion about architecture baselines before, but I   
   think   
   > we should do that.  We also don't have any guidelines what we as Debian want   
   to   
   > actually support.  But given that we are a general purpose distribution, we   
   > have to find a balance.   
      
   you did not provide data to show what your "balance" is about,   
   and discussions not based on data are rarely productive.   
      
   Your proposal would make many users unhappy, it would be you who has to   
   show the benefits.   
      
   Whether your proposal to drop support for v1 amd64 hardware is even   
   worth discussing depends a lot on whether the typical performance   
   improvement is 2% or 20%.   
      
   It would also be useful to have data for security hardening in this   
   discussion.   
      
   We are shipping an additional version of the Python interpreter built   
   without PIE because this one hardening feature alone had a large enough   
   negtive impact on performance that it was not suitable for some users.   
      
   Typical for a discussion not based on data would be if it later turns   
   out that there was a huge discussion with GR and everything about   
   something that only makes 2% difference, but building HPC software   
   with hardening flags costs 20%.   
      
   > As a general guidance I would like to aim for a ten to 15 years support range   
   > at release time.  The cutoff in respect to the expected 2027 release date of   
   > Forky would therefor be 2012 to 2017.  More time is given for widely used   
   > architectures, less for more specialized ones.   
   >...   
   > ## amd64 (and i386)   
   >   
   > * x86-64-v2: Supported since around 2008[^x86]. Used in RedHat   
   9[^redhat9x86].   
   > * x86-64-v3: Supported since around 2013-2015[^x86]. Used in RedHat   
   >   10[^redhat10].   
      
   What RHEL uses is not particularly relevant, since enterprise   
   distributions do not target the cheap low-end systems that are   
   manufactured and used for a long time.   
      
   > I propose to use the x86-64-v2 baseline in Forky.   
   > It gives us more then the 15 years   
   >...   
      
   You are talking about the mostly irrelevant "supported by one CPU" date.   
      
   It is also telling that you aren't mentioning v4, which was supported by   
   Intel desktop CPUs in the past - but current Intel desktop and laptop CPUs   
   are not supporting it.   
      
   Based on your proposal, you want us to drop support for Intel desktops   
   and laptops sold today in 4-9 years.   
      
   Actually relevant would be the date when the last CPU was sold that did   
   not support the new baseline.   
      
   15 years after the last CPU was sold would be a point where usage   
   becomes quite low.   
      
   Even the introduction of the most recent new v1 CPU was not more than   
   10 years ago, we are still at least a decade away from the point where   
   v1 usage could be called retro computing.   
      
   cu   
   Adrian   
      
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