From: grammatim@verizon.net   
      
   On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 12:24:20 PM UTC-4, Bolwerk wrote:   
   > On 09/27/2015 02:36 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:   
   > > On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:38:54 AM UTC-4, Bolwerk wrote:   
   > >> On 09/27/2015 09:50 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:   
   > >>> On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:40:44 AM UTC-4, Bolwerk   
   > >>> wrote:   
   > >>>> On 09/25/2015 10:46 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:   
   > >>>>> On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-4, Bolwerk   
   > >>>>> wrote:   
   > >>>   
   > >>>>>> What I don't get is why no rail solutions are considered   
   > >>>>>> for PABT remediation at all.  You can't move all those   
   > >>>>>> people off buses, but you can cut the crowding down a lot   
   > >>>>>> with rail. HBLR via the Lincoln Tunnel would be cheap if   
   > >>>>>> the vehicles fit. Just look on the west side.  Even a new   
   > >>>>>> rapid transit line from NJ to the west side would be   
   > >>>>>> cheaper than $10B.   
   > >>>>> So you want to cut the motor vehicle lanes from 6 to 4   
   > >>>>> permanently, to accommodate a single rail line that couldn't   
   > >>>>>  replace even 10% of the buses that use it every day?   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>> That would hardly be a tragedy given how few people actually   
   > >>>> move through the tunnel by private automobile relative to   
   > >>>> transit at peak times.  At the peak hour in the AM rush, it's   
   > >>>> something like 3,000 people by car vs. 35,000+ on buses!   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>> Though I don't see why you think HBLR through the tunnel would   
   > >>>>  draw so few people.   
   > >>>   
   > >>> I didn't address number of people at all. I addressed the   
   > >>> flexibility of bus service versus the fixity of rail service.   
   > >>   
   > >> "[R]eplace...10% of the buses" implies not many people would   
   > >> switch and   
   > >   
   > > Charitably, you could claim that HBLR goes to 5 different places.   
   >   
   > I'd at least call every station a "place."   
      
   There are an awful lot more bus stops than rail stations.   
      
   > > That's less than 10% of the NJT bus routes, let alone the other   
   > > ones, and the NJT buses go to a lot more places than Hudson County   
   > > (the "B" in the name remains wishful thinking).   
   >   
   > The waterfront is a pretty dense area though.  Plus you must consider   
   > some of HBLR's potential riders are using buses because, well, HBLR   
   > doesn't go to Midtown.   
      
   Two stops in western Hoboken, one in western Weekawken, and one near the   
   NY Waterways parking lot.   
      
   > >> ridership is therefore going to be limited.  Going by 10%, maybe   
   > >> 4000 people an hour would cross the tunnel by rail (not counting   
   > >> any induced new traffic).  FWIW, that's probably enough to fill 10   
   > >> or so HBLR trains vs over 50 buses.  Flexibility much?   
   > >   
   > > What do you think "flexible" means?   
   >   
   > Being able to adjust to changing conditions?  Buses aren't exactly the   
   > best option for dealing with huge peak crowds.  And the number of people   
   > crossing the Hudson River in Lincoln Tunnel buses has a larger peak hour   
   > than any river rail crossing in the city.   
      
   "Flexible" means able to run on nearly any street and able to bypass spots   
   closed by an accident or construction.   
      
   You continue to make arguments for preferring bus to light rail in the   
   Lincoln Tunnel.   
      
   > >> HBLR also covers some of the densest parts of northern NJ without   
   > >> going to the biggest single commuting destination for HBLR   
   > >> territory.   
   > >   
   > > Hunh? It goes to Bayonne, one part of the south side of Jersey City,   
   > > "the new downtown" JC, the western edge of Hoboken, and the middle   
   > > of nowhere about 50th & Tonnele in North Bergen. With one stop in   
   > > Weekawken.   
   >   
   > I don't think any of those places have densities below 10k/sq. mi., and   
   > I believe Hoboken has higher average density than any NYC borough   
   > besides Manhattan.   
      
   Hudson is the second most densely populated county in the country.   
      
   Bayonne doesn't look dense to me. I haven't noticed any high-rises at all.   
      
   And such few stations as exist aren't particularly near the dense populations.   
      
   > >>> But you completely deleted what I actually said about bus lines.   
   > >> Because I was aware of it and basically agreed with it?  I didn't   
   > >> say I thought the buses should be removed.  If anything, I see   
   > >> them as complements.  Especially if HBLR could extend across the   
   > >> island of Manhattan.   
   > > But you want to remove 1/3 of the traffic lanes, 50% of the traffic   
   > > lanes during rush hour.   
   >   
   > Certainly not from buses!  I didn't say I "want" to do it, but it's   
   > worth studying. It wouldn't be hard to move more people by HBLR than by   
   > car, but it might be harder to significantly reduce bus dependency.   
      
   At least one of the four lanes of rush-hour traffic is buses-only. You want   
   to reduce those four lanes to two at all times, making it impossible for one   
   of them to be buses-only. I don't know why people want to drive into Manhattan,   
   but they do.(Trucks are mostly routed to the GWB.)   
      
   > >> Maybe, *maybe*, that means fewer buses would need to cross to   
   > >> Manhattan in the long run.  Not exactly a bad thing, but a better   
   > >> consideration is the tunnel is at a strained capacity already and   
   > >> expecting another 50k riders a day in a few decades.   
   > > How many fewer?   
   >   
   > Don't know.  To start, it would depend how many riders originate in the   
   > HBLR corridor and how many transfers to HBLR could be attracted.   
      
   There's no HBLR anywhere near me. I've never ridden it even once.   
      
   > It would very much depend on the implementation.  About 50% of PABT   
   > users walk to from PABT to their final destination.  If HBLR actually   
   > crossed town, it probably becomes a lot more attractive as a transfer   
   > option than it would be if it simply turned on the west side.   
   >   
   > Penn Station is much further west and south than desired,  so *any*   
   > direct midtown connection is likely to be successful.   
      
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