XPost: alt.parenting.spanking, misc.kids, alt.parenting.solutions   
   XPost: rec.pets.dogs.behavior   
   From: carls017@umn.edu   
      
   You wrote to doan:   
      
   "This AIN'T abHOWET HOWE we was raised, but rather,   
   WHAT we have LEARNED DESPITE having been raised   
   in a less than HOWEspitable environment <{); ~ ) >"   
      
   This is an excellent response to doan.  Doan continues to refuse to   
   debate issues.  His only recourse, currently, is personal attack.   
   However, for both puppies and children, it is about how we were raised,   
   and it is about what we learn from that early environment.   
      
   I currently have a shelter dog that is a Rottweiler mix.  He has a   
   strong pry instinct and while he does fine with my other two dogs, he   
   wants to kill my cat.   
      
   We're working on prevention, on praise, and on kindness.  How wonderful   
   it would be if parents would use the same principles when raising children.   
      
   LaVonne   
      
   ThePuppyProphet@AniMail.Net wrote:   
   > HOWEDY doan,   
   >   
   > Doan wrote:   
   >   
   >>On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Carlson LaVonne wrote:   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>pohaku.kane@gmail.com wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>AnimalBehaviorForensicSciencesResearchLaboratory@HushMail.Com wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>HOWEDY pokahu.kane,   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>pohaku.kane@gmail.com wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>AnimalBehaviorForensicSciencesResearchLaboratory@HushMail.Com wrote:   
   >>>>>>...........poof!.............   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>So much for babbling nitwittery from trolls.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>Seems we're both on the same side of the argument.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>"Side?" What "side" would you be referring to?   
   >>>>   
   >>>>Animal training and child rearing are quite dissimilar.   
   >>>   
   >>>Yet anyone who has trained animals knows that hitting and hurting the   
   >>>animal, or causing fear in the animal is the least effective way to gain   
   >>>compliance.  Both dogs and children want to please.  Both dogs and   
   >>>children are capable of learning appropriate behavior.  Both dogs and   
   >>>children learn appropriate behavior when they are trained or taught with   
   >>>kindness, respect, and trust.   
   >>>   
   >>>>And they should be.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>The long term outcome for a puppy and a child are very different.   
   >>>   
   >>>The long term outcome for both puppies and children are both different   
   >>>and similar.  For children, the long term outcome is to become a happy,   
   >>>healthy, kind, conscientious member of society.  For the puppy, we want   
   >>>the puppy to become a kind, confident, respectful dog.   
   >>>   
   >>>The child, of course, will reach a much higher level of functioning and   
   >>>moral reasoning than will the puppy, provided the child has appropriate   
   >>>parenting.   
   >>   
   >>Did you have "appropriate" parenting, LaVonne? ;-)   
   >   
   >   
   > This AIN'T abHOWET HOWE we was raised, but rather,   
   > WHAT we have LEARNED DESPITE having been raised   
   > in a less than HOWEspitable environment <{); ~ ) >   
   >   
   >>Doan   
   >   
   >   
   >                  Punishment Deranges Behavior.   
   >          "NO!" Does NOT Have Any Behavioral Function   
   >                          EXCEPT   
   >                    To DERANGE Behaviors.   
   >   
   > Here's professor dermer pryor:   
   >   
   > From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)   
   > Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual   
   > Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST   
   >   
   >      And how do we know this aspect of his   
   >      advice is right?   
   >   
   >      Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.   
   >      His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.   
   >   
   >      (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the   
   >      few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,   
   >      ill-mannered, or just plain ill.­),   
   >   
   >      --Marshall   
   >   
   > "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.   
   > But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and   
   > shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases   
   > then you will have achieved too things.   
   >   
   > First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;   
   > and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.   
   >   
   > How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the   
   > minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted   
   > biting.   
   >   
   > **********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************   
   >   
   > When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild   
   > forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth   
   > closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came   
   > before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).   
   >   
   > "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"   
   > to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall   
   > dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at   
   > UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.   
   >   
   > BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!   
   >   
   > That's INSANE. Ain't it.   
   >   
   > Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:   
   >   
   >     "We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should   
   >     Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.   
   >     God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,   
   >     Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.   
   >   
   >  From: "Marshall Dermer"    
   >  To: "The Puppy Wizard"   
   >     
   >  Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM   
   >   
   >  Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard   
   >  Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,   
   >   
   >  I have, of late, come to recognize your genius   
   >  and now must applaud your attempts to save   
   >  animals from painful training procedures.   
   >   
   >  You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent­,   
   >  who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts ­to   
   >  alert the world to animal abuse.   
   >   
   >  We are lucky to have you, and more people should   
   >  come to their senses and support your valuable   
   >  work.   
   >   
   >  Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit   
   >  charity to fund your important work?   
   >  Have you thought about holding a press conference   
   >  so others can learn of your highly worthwhile   
   >  and significant work?   
   >   
   >  In closing, my only suggestion is that you   
   >  try to keep your messages short for most   
   >  readers may refuse to read a long message   
   >  even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.   
   >  I wish you well in your endeavors.   
   >   
   >  --Marshall Dermer   
   >   
   >   
   > Subject: < BEFORE ->  "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,   
   >                       No Good Charlatan,"   
   >   
   > < AFTER ->  "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With   
   >             A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile   
   >             Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult   
   >             Dog Lovers.   
   >   
   >            'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize   
   >            A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.   
   >   
   >   
   >>Subject:  Re: Fritz---a retrospective   
   >>Date: 02/05/1999   
   >>Author: Robert Crim    
   >>You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan.  If you had   
   >>any idea of what dogs and dog people were about   
   >>you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing   
   >>and contempt I hold for you right now.  Were it not   
   >>for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet   
   >>gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably   
   >>be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile   
   >>of shit you really are   
   >   
   >   
      
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