XPost: rec.pets.dogs.behavior, alt.animals.dog, rec.pets.dogs.breeds   
   XPost: rec.pets.dogs.rescue   
   From: none@example.com   
      
   bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com schrieb:   
   > Mens _ Canis wrote:   
   >> bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com schrieb:   
   >>> All aggression is fear, in all caps no less. My cat must be terrified   
   >>> of mice, lions must fear waterbuck and zebras, etc. Prey drive is   
   >>> present in dogs and dominance drive as well. NEITHER one is fear, you   
   >>> muddle-headed fool. Dog-dog aggression is rarely or never from prey   
   >>> drive but it sure as hell can be from dominance drive and not involve   
   >>> any fear at all. Aggression versus cats is always, or almost always,   
   >>> prey drive and again it involves no fear. Aggression versus humans is   
   >>> almost always caused by fear, although dominance is the cause in a   
   >>> minority of cases.   
   >>>   
      
   dear will again  :-)   
      
   perhaps first of all we had to define the meaning of 'aggression':   
    >your!< example was  cats : mice & therefore >i< responded (not jerry)   
   this is caused by hunger (hunting in an "aggressive" better: fast way   
   but otherwise the mouse will escape...)   
   >   
   > All that is true but it does not mean that it is not aggression. When   
   > working with dogs, the various drives toward aggression are obviously   
   > seperate but they all lead to aggression. To say that Jerry is correct   
   > because "fear of hunger" equates to "fear" as he uses it is naive. He   
   > is not talking about fear of hunger.   
   >   
   right. he did not. we both did.   
      
   > The facial expressions of lions when confronting one another or   
   > confronting hyenas over a kill is quite different from their facial   
   > expressions when taking down a wildebeast or zebra. On the other hand,   
   > when taking down an adult buffalo or a calf with the herd trying to   
   > repel them, they look like they are fighting and not hunting.   
   >   
   > These are separate sets of emotions that are on occasion combined.   
   >   
   agree.   
   but we are referring to behaviors of domestic animals.   
   dogs & relationship between humans & their dogs. eventually human beings   
   and their motivation/reasons etc.   
      
   >> °° dominance = fear. fear i could lose my position (the other one is   
   >> recognized as an enimy / he could grow strong on resistance: all   
   >> meanings of -pression for example suppression repression aso)   
   >   
   > All a young male would have to do to avoid fighting an alpha male, in   
   > the case of lions, is not try to take the pride away. Hunting for   
   > oneself must be annoying for a male lion but they are quite capable of   
   > it. It is not fear that causes him, or them if he has a pal or brother   
   > with him, to attack. It is ambition, dominance.   
   >   
   ok 2nd time lion: the young male lion's intention (for surviving & let   
   survive the own genes ->) is to fight against an older one.   
   he has to overcome any (own) sense of anxiety* (see jerry* again!) for   
   winning a better position.   
   see also my point °°.   
      
   >>> Not only are you are wrong, you are loud wrong.   
   >>>   
   >> sorry will. jerry is absolutely right.   
   >   
   > Only in the sense that everyone dies of heart failure. Treating the   
   > different sources of aggression identically will not lead to good   
   > results with dogs. Treating them as if they are the same with wild   
   > animals can be tragic.   
      
   dogs are not any longer wild animals: they live together with us in our   
   houses & we should take care for our and our animal's best to create a   
   better way of living.   
   a good dog is good for you & for a good dog you'll become a kind of God.   
   pardon: i did >not!< mean any kind of hybris!   
   i have cats since i remember. i grew up with the dogs of my gandma and   
   had my first own dog 1987... lost him 2002 now i'm living with 2   
   wonderful shepards (long time ago: 'straydogs' that nobody wanted before).   
      
   > Good advice to avoid a fear driven or   
   > territorially driven bear attack, lie down and stay still, will be very   
   > bad if the bear is looking for a meal.   
   >   
   > Talking to Jerry was my error.   
   >   
   no - not at all. it's never! an error on trying to find communication.   
   that is why we are here: this is the sense of a newsgroup.   
      
   >> but you are right what about > bad manners <. strange thing because all   
   >> the respect we owe to animals (the quintessence of his words) he does   
   >> not show in his behavior with 'human beings'.   
   >> perhaps he thinks that in a very loud and respectless world he has to be   
   >> 'louder' for being heard by us -  ;-)   
   >   
   > He does his best*, which is worthless°.   
   >   
   sorry i repeat thinking his ideas are brillant*.   
   NOT° his bad mannered style of posting.   
   (no one of us has to merry him... :-) )   
      
   (i don't know him personally. but with love patience positive   
   ACK/intensification i handled each 'problem' "<- what IS this?? :-)"   
   during the last 20 yrs with my dogs.)   
      
   wish you a very good time   
   (good evening from vienna) mc   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)