From: A_Tina_Hall@kruemel.org   
      
    wrote:   
   > A. Tina Hall  wrote:   
   >> Michelle Bottorff   wrote:   
      
   >>> i was thinking about my spy guy, who won't tell the heroine his   
   >>> name* and I figured that she would pretty much have to come up with   
   >>> some kind of nickname for him, or my readers will go nuts, right?   
   >>> One doesn't need a name to think about a person, but writing or   
   >>> talking about them without some kind of handle is waaayyyy more   
   >>> awkward.   
   >>   
   >> Hm. I've come across something similar with my evil overlords who   
   >> won't think (or talk amongst themselves using) normal people's   
   >> names. For them they're the cheeky thief, the wrinkled gardener, the   
   >> pretty Farseer, the messed up guide,... ("Names. Pah, he thought.   
   >> Might as well name ants,... ")   
      
   > Bambi in one of my other stories does it too.... but it's a different   
   > situation there.  Bambi was coming up with things to call some people   
   > she doesn't think much of and hopes never to meet again.   
      
   Hehe.   
      
   > The 'messed-up guide' is okay as a minor character, but conistently   
   > reffering to the second most important character in the book like   
   > that I think would get annoying fast.   
      
   The advantage of multiple tight third. The viewpoints who call the two   
   most important characters "the pretty Farseer" and "the impossible boy",   
   with variants of 'the pretty Farseer's brother' and 'the impossible   
   boy's brother' (or just boy, or Farseer, once it's clear who they mean)   
   only get a viewpoint now and then.   
      
   I remember a story where the only viewpoint was refering to the   
   secondary character only as the traveller. David Drake, what was the   
   title... Ah, google helped: Birds of Prey.   
      
   I keep remembering that when I use tags to describe people, because it   
   worked so well.   
      
   >> The Unknown (guy)? Sounds odd. The stranger would be der Fremde.   
   >> I don't quite understand why you don't use the language the story is   
   >> written in.   
      
   > She's not really a romantic nickname type, you see.  It seems more in   
   > character for her to just grab a descriptive term, and then use it as   
   > if it was a name, rather than for her to become attached to any   
   > particular descriptive term as a descriptive term.   
      
   > So it wouldn't be, "Oh, ::swoon:: there he is again, My Mr. Mystery!"   
      
   Hehe. (Not that I'd think 'swoon' when I see 'Mr. Mystery.)   
      
   >  It would be.  "Haven't we already met, Mr. Stranger?"  "You must   
   > have misheard my introduction.  My name is Hans Brinker.  And I'm   
   > sure I would remember meeting such a lovely lady before." "How   
   > unaccountable -- I felt certain I'd seen your face... somewhere   
   > pastoral."  "It was just your soul recognizing its true partner,   
   > across the echoes of eternity." "Could you try to keep the richness   
   > of your conversational whimsies to a minimum, Mr. Stranger?  Too much   
   > butter and cream, and I get indigestion."   
      
   Hehe.   
      
   > Except that "Mr Stranger" would look entirely out of place when   
   > almost everyone else in the book is a Herr Brinker and a Herr Schmidt   
   > and so forth, (and the one who isn't is very nearly a M. d'Artagnan)   
   > and the character isn't English, and my heroine isn't trying to   
   > suggest that he is, and she isn't English herself.   
      
   Hm. Now I wonder why 'Herr' and not 'Mr.'.   
      
   I guess I'm too focussed on the story being written in English, so I see   
   no point in addressing someone as Senor or Herr or whatever the French   
   equivalent to Mr. would be.   
      
   But this has me think of a possible term for you: der Herr. (Means "the   
   man", not "the lord" (so, no noble title needed), unless the person is   
   religious and talking about their god - you won't find this use outside   
   that kind of subject.   
      
   And it's possible to us it directly addressing the guy, and also do an   
   extra snarky "der werte Herr" (werte is short for verehrte, I think,   
   honoured, revered). (The snarky interpretation might be modern, though.   
   Imagine a mother asking her son "Wann wird denn der Herr sein Zimmer   
   aufraeumen?" - "Now, when will der Herr tidy his room?")   
      
   Plus, it's a bit old, though I don't know from when, maybe Brian has   
   better terminology and times for it.   
      
   > So I think it should be "Haven't we already met, Herr Fremder?"  "How   
   > unkind of you to name me 'stranger'!  Or perhaps you just missed my   
   > introduction?  I'd be happy to repeat it.  I am Hans Brinker -- and   
   > I'm very sure we have never met, how could I have forgotten such a   
   > lovely lady?"  "How unaccountable.  I was sure I'd seen your face...   
   > somewhere pastoral."  "It was just your soul recognizing its true   
   > partner, across the echoes of eternity."  "Could you try to keep the   
   > richness of your conversational whimsies to a minimum, Herr Fremder?   
   > Too much butter and cream, and I get indigestion."  "I will make your   
   > digestion my first priority.  But if 'Herr Brinker' is too difficult   
   > for your charming French tongue, do you think could bring yourself   
   > call me Hans?" "Most unlikely."   
      
   > That sort of thing?   
      
   I think it needs a differnt term. :)   
      
   With der Herr, Herr Fremder here would be replaced with mein Herr (mein   
   means mine). I'm not sure how well that would fit into the time, though,   
   no idea if back then it would indeed only be used addressing one's   
   master ('Herr' can also be used meaning '(one's) master').   
      
   Anecdote from childhood: We were in the Wuppertal Schwebebahn (tram   
   hanging from rails), I was told to sit next to that Herr, little me   
   replied, "that's not a Herr, he has no dog".   
      
   (Male person with dog would be Herrchen, and I was never good with   
   words. :) As a kid I also thought Africa and America is the same, and   
   wondered why sometimes it was south and sometimes west, also thinking   
   terrorist and tourist is the same, and wondering why they were sometimes   
   the bad guys and sometimes the good guys on the news.)   
      
   > Anyway, I was already having a bit of a problem with this idea,   
   > because although I can easily imagine the conversation above, what   
   > does she say when she is in the mood to call him by his first name?   
   > And she probably wouldn't be thinkng of him as Herr Fremder in her   
   > head, either. So that limits its universality and makes it harder to   
   > establish 'Herr Fremder" as the words that mean him.  If you see what   
   > I'm saying.   
      
   Yeah.   
      
   >> And if she knows he's a spy, just call him the spy.   
      
   > She doesn't know he's a spy until the end of the story.  Not that it   
   > exactly comes as a surprise, but its not something she would be   
   > thinking to call him from the beginning, so it doesn't work for my   
   > purposes.   
      
   Ok.   
      
      
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