From: julie@pascal.org   
      
   On Friday, November 21, 2014 5:23:08 PM UTC-7, John F. Eldredge wrote:   
   > On Thu, 20 Nov 2014 06:58:36 -0800, William Vetter wrote:   
   >   
   > > On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:06:56 PM UTC-5, John F. Eldredge   
   > > wrote:   
   > >> On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 15:28:43 -0800, David E. Siegel (siegel@acm.org)   
   > >> wrote:   
   > >>   
   > >> > On Saturday, October 25, 2014 11:16:04 PM UTC-4, William Vetter   
   > >> > wrote:   
   > >> >> On Sunday, October 5, 2014 8:53:55 PM UTC-4, J.Pascal wrote:   
   > >> >> > On Sunday, October 5, 2014 5:45:42 PM UTC-6, William Vetter wrote:   
   > >> >> > > On Sunday, October 5, 2014 3:18:46 PM UTC-4, J.Pascal wrote:   
   > >> >> > >   
   > >> >> > (...)   
   > >> >> > >   
   > >> >> > > > Saying "You can't use weather to indicate mood" is like saying   
   > >> >> > > > "no more using short words and sentences to heighten a sense   
   > >> >> > > > of urgency."   
   > >> >> > >   
   > >> >> > >   
   > >> >> > >   
   > >> >> > > There is another one they say universally...the character can't   
   > >> >> > > look in a mirror and describe herself.   
   > >> >> > >   
   > >> >> > > The other day I was thinking about that, that there used to be a   
   > >> >> > > TV show named "Quantum Leap" involving Scott Bakula, where he   
   > >> >> > > looked in the mirror at the beginning of every episode.   
   > >> >> >   
   > >> >> >   
   > >> >> > Of course that worked really well in "Quantum Leap" where Bakula   
   > >> >> > ran around looking just like Bakula but for the story was actually   
   > >> >> > in other people's bodies so we got to see in a reflection what he   
   > >> >> > looked like to everyone else.  Sort of like if there are vampires   
   > >> >> > there's at least one instance of non-reflection required. :)   
   > >> >> >   
   > >> >> > But anyhow, the mirror description thing....   
   > >> >> >   
   > >> >> > Honest, I think that was a solution to a non-existent problem.   
   > >> >> > Someone or other decided that a "good" writer in a single POV 3rd   
   > >> >> > person narrative or 1st person never let anything on the page that   
   > >> >> > their POV character wouldn't actually think.  So since I already   
   > >> >> > know that I have blond hair and blue eyes and am 5 feet tall I   
   > >> >> > would never think about my blond hair and blue eyes.  I might   
   > >> >> > think about my height if the author asked me to get a bowl from a   
   > >> >> > high shelf but in order to think about my *hair* I need to be   
   > >> >> > looking in a mirror fixing it.   
   > >> >>   
   > >> >> I dunno.  Women say, "I hate my hair" all the time.  It's pretty   
   > >> >> much universal.  And black women have an even bigger thing about the   
   > >> >> hair relaxer.   
   > >> >> >   
   > >> >> > Other solutions could be to have someone else say something   
   > >> >> > like... "Julie, I sure do envy your beautiful blond hair... it   
   > >> >> > flows like sunshine..."  *Gak*  And besides, this has to happen at   
   > >> >> > the beginning of the story, and giving me a love-sick stalker just   
   > >> >> > to describe my looks is even sillier than having me walk past a   
   > >> >> > mirror.   
   > >> >>   
   > >> >> A stalker needs to appear frequently in the manuscript, be almost   
   > >> >> inescapable, or the stalker is not a stalker, just an annoyance.   
   > >> >> >   
   > >> >> > And I imagine that people started to notice that "the mirror   
   > >> >> > trick" seemed forced, too, and frequently applied...   
   > >> >> >   
   > >> >> > ...to a wholly made-up problem.  Just describe your POV character   
   > >> >> > and get it over with.  If a mirror is *appropriate* then use a   
   > >> >> > mirror. If a love-lorn stalker is *appropriate* use a love-lorn   
   > >> >> > stalker.  If it doesn't really matter what your POV character   
   > >> >> > looks like, or what specie they are, or sex... then leave it out.   
   > >> >>   
   > >> >> I think you really need to let reader know if the POV character is   
   > >> >> an alien quickly.  And probably the gender.  If they think the   
   > >> >> author is playing games with them, like intentionally hiding that   
   > >> >> the POV character is a female physician or a male nurse to prove the   
   > >> >> reader is a sexist, they'll feel their intelligence is being   
   > >> >> insulted.   
   > >> >   
   > >> > If it is too blatant yes. But it can work. I recently reread _Alien   
   > >> > Island_   
   > >> >  (1970) by T. L. Sherred, and it is not until page 55 that the gender   
   > >> >  of the PoV character is clearly stated to be female, a point which   
   > >> >  soon becomes important. The character has two often but not   
   > >> >  invariably male occupations: bartender (as a cover) and intelligence   
   > >> >  agent (subordinate). There may have been a few cues, but they were   
   > >> >  too subtle for me to pick up on, and I suspect for most readers. I   
   > >> >  think it worked well in this particular case, and can work if it is   
   > >> >  well done. Of course default gender assumptions were perhaps even   
   > >> >  stronger in 1970 than they are now.   
   > >> >   
   > >> > -DES   
   > >>   
   > >> Melissa Scott's novel _The Kindly Ones_ never does reveal the gender of   
   > >> the protagonist, Trey Maturin, and does so skillfully enough that I   
   > >> didn't realize that I didn't know his or her gender until the second   
   > >> time I read the novel.  Maturin is always addressed by name, by title,   
   > >> or in the second person.  This is the only novel in which Melissa Scott   
   > >> has done this.   
   > >   
   > >   
   > > I have never seen this done by professional writers.  What I meant when   
   > > I originally mentioned this was that, at times, I have seen it in   
   > > workshop manuscripts that represent perhaps the level of the 75th   
   > > percentile of the slushpile where some young or inexperienced author has   
   > > concealed the gender of a POV character in a piece of short fiction, or   
   > > written almost entirely in character dialog with the purpose of   
   > > concealing a gender of a physician, so that the physician can be   
   > > revealed to be a woman in the final paragraph as a sort of twist ending.   
   >   
   > Melissa Scott hasn't used the gender-hiding technique in any other   
   > novels.  I suspect she decided that it wasn't worth the effort to avoid   
   > ever using a gendered pronoun.   
      
   I view it as one of those things like writing in 2nd person or present tense   
   or with events out of order, or backwards, or without punctuation *once* just   
   to see if you have the chops to pull it off.   
      
   -Julie   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)