From: mdhangton@gmail.com   
      
   John W Kennedy wrote :   
   > On 2014-11-22 05:04:17 +0000, William Vetter said:   
   >   
   >> It happens that J.Pascal formulated :   
   >>> On Friday, November 21, 2014 5:23:08 PM UTC-7, John F. Eldredge wrote:   
   >>>> On Thu, 20 Nov 2014 06:58:36 -0800, William Vetter wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:06:56 PM UTC-5, John F. Eldredge   
   >>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>> On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 15:28:43 -0800, David E. Siegel (siegel@acm.org)   
   >>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> On Saturday, October 25, 2014 11:16:04 PM UTC-4, William Vetter   
   >>>>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 5, 2014 8:53:55 PM UTC-4, J.Pascal wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 5, 2014 5:45:42 PM UTC-6, William Vetter wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 5, 2014 3:18:46 PM UTC-4, J.Pascal wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> (...)   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Saying "You can't use weather to indicate mood" is like saying   
   >>>>>>>>>>> "no more using short words and sentences to heighten a sense   
   >>>>>>>>>>> of urgency."   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> There is another one they say universally...the character can't   
   >>>>>>>>>> look in a mirror and describe herself.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> The other day I was thinking about that, that there used to be a   
   >>>>>>>>>> TV show named "Quantum Leap" involving Scott Bakula, where he   
   >>>>>>>>>> looked in the mirror at the beginning of every episode.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Of course that worked really well in "Quantum Leap" where Bakula   
   >>>>>>>>> ran around looking just like Bakula but for the story was actually   
   >>>>>>>>> in other people's bodies so we got to see in a reflection what he   
   >>>>>>>>> looked like to everyone else.  Sort of like if there are vampires   
   >>>>>>>>> there's at least one instance of non-reflection required. :)   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> But anyhow, the mirror description thing....   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Honest, I think that was a solution to a non-existent problem.   
   >>>>>>>>> Someone or other decided that a "good" writer in a single POV 3rd   
   >>>>>>>>> person narrative or 1st person never let anything on the page that   
   >>>>>>>>> their POV character wouldn't actually think.  So since I already   
   >>>>>>>>> know that I have blond hair and blue eyes and am 5 feet tall I   
   >>>>>>>>> would never think about my blond hair and blue eyes.  I might   
   >>>>>>>>> think about my height if the author asked me to get a bowl from a   
   >>>>>>>>> high shelf but in order to think about my *hair* I need to be   
   >>>>>>>>> looking in a mirror fixing it.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> I dunno.  Women say, "I hate my hair" all the time.  It's pretty   
   >>>>>>>> much universal.  And black women have an even bigger thing about the   
   >>>>>>>> hair relaxer.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> Other solutions could be to have someone else say something   
   >>>>>>>>> like... "Julie, I sure do envy your beautiful blond hair... it   
   >>>>>>>>> flows like sunshine..."  *Gak*  And besides, this has to happen at   
   >>>>>>>>> the beginning of the story, and giving me a love-sick stalker just   
   >>>>>>>>> to describe my looks is even sillier than having me walk past a   
   >>>>>>>>> mirror.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> A stalker needs to appear frequently in the manuscript, be almost   
   >>>>>>>> inescapable, or the stalker is not a stalker, just an annoyance.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> And I imagine that people started to notice that "the mirror   
   >>>>>>>>> trick" seemed forced, too, and frequently applied...   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> ...to a wholly made-up problem.  Just describe your POV character   
   >>>>>>>>> and get it over with.  If a mirror is *appropriate* then use a   
   >>>>>>>>> mirror. If a love-lorn stalker is *appropriate* use a love-lorn   
   >>>>>>>>> stalker.  If it doesn't really matter what your POV character   
   >>>>>>>>> looks like, or what specie they are, or sex... then leave it out.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> I think you really need to let reader know if the POV character is   
   >>>>>>>> an alien quickly.  And probably the gender.  If they think the   
   >>>>>>>> author is playing games with them, like intentionally hiding that   
   >>>>>>>> the POV character is a female physician or a male nurse to prove the   
   >>>>>>>> reader is a sexist, they'll feel their intelligence is being   
   >>>>>>>> insulted.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> If it is too blatant yes. But it can work. I recently reread _Alien   
   >>>>>>> Island_   
   >>>>>>> (1970) by T. L. Sherred, and it is not until page 55 that the gender   
   >>>>>>> of the PoV character is clearly stated to be female, a point which   
   >>>>>>> soon becomes important. The character has two often but not   
   >>>>>>> invariably male occupations: bartender (as a cover) and intelligence   
   >>>>>>> agent (subordinate). There may have been a few cues, but they were   
   >>>>>>> too subtle for me to pick up on, and I suspect for most readers. I   
   >>>>>>> think it worked well in this particular case, and can work if it is   
   >>>>>>> well done. Of course default gender assumptions were perhaps even   
   >>>>>>> stronger in 1970 than they are now.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> -DES   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Melissa Scott's novel _The Kindly Ones_ never does reveal the gender of   
   >>>>>> the protagonist, Trey Maturin, and does so skillfully enough that I   
   >>>>>> didn't realize that I didn't know his or her gender until the second   
   >>>>>> time I read the novel.  Maturin is always addressed by name, by title,   
   >>>>>> or in the second person.  This is the only novel in which Melissa Scott   
   >>>>>> has done this.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> I have never seen this done by professional writers.  What I meant when   
   >>>>> I originally mentioned this was that, at times, I have seen it in   
   >>>>> workshop manuscripts that represent perhaps the level of the 75th   
   >>>>> percentile of the slushpile where some young or inexperienced author has   
   >>>>> concealed the gender of a POV character in a piece of short fiction, or   
   >>>>> written almost entirely in character dialog with the purpose of   
   >>>>> concealing a gender of a physician, so that the physician can be   
   >>>>> revealed to be a woman in the final paragraph as a sort of twist ending.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Melissa Scott hasn't used the gender-hiding technique in any other   
   >>>> novels.  I suspect she decided that it wasn't worth the effort to avoid   
   >>>> ever using a gendered pronoun.   
   >>>   
   >>> I view it as one of those things like writing in 2nd person or present   
   >>> tense or with events out of order, or backwards, or without punctuation   
   >>> *once* just to see if you have the chops to pull it off.   
   >>>   
   >> There was another thing like that about 20 years ago where you weren't   
   >> allowed to use any verb tenses that incorporate the verb to be.  Or   
   >> something like that.  People called it e-prime, and it was supposed to be,   
   >> like, really cool.   
   >   
      
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