From: usenet2@vyznev.invalid   
      
   On 2009-05-09, David Friedman  wrote:   
   > In article ,   
   >  Ilmari Karonen  wrote:   
   >   
   >> Nonetheless, people _have_ conducted some "blind application" studies   
   >> in which identical resumés were submitted to prospective employers   
   >> with just the applicant's name changed to a typically male or female   
   >> one.   
   >   
   > The problem with that sort of experiment is that, the more you restrict   
   > the amount of data someone has in making the decision, the more it makes   
   > sense to engage in statistical discrimination.   
      
   Yes.  As I said, it's hard to objectively test what goes on inside a   
   person's head without constructing somewhat artificial scenarios.   
      
   That said, the orchestra study I mentioned is interesting in that they   
   looked at actual hiring decisions made with or without knowledge (at   
   least in the early stages of the process) of the applicant's sex, in a   
   field where an applicant's job performance can in fact be objectively   
   evaluated to a large extent without actually seeing the applicant.   
      
   Of course, neither of these studies directly say anything about   
   sex-based discrimination among firefighters, only among academics and   
   orchestra musicians.  But they do seem to provide examples of positive   
   evidence, at least as far as such can be provided without telepathy,   
   of employee selection being made on the basis of sex regardless of (or   
   even in contradiction of) actual demonstrated ability to do the job.   
      
   Which is what James claimed that "no one ever produces", so I figured   
   I ought to take a few minutes to Google some to produce for him.   
      
      
   > The argument that was being offered by the poster James was arguing with   
   > was that you ought to judge each firefighter by whether he or she could   
   > do the job, not by gender. Hard to do if you aren't allowed to actually   
   > see whether the applicant can pick up someone and carry him, that being   
   > part of the job.   
      
   I suppose it would technically be possible to test prospective   
   firefighters' physical abilities in a blinded way, as with the   
   musicians: while _someone_ must surely see the applicant performing   
   the test tasks, that someone need not be any of the people doing the   
   actual selection.  It would be enough for someone to certify that,   
   yes, applicant X can pick up and carry a W-kg man for N meters in T   
   seconds, and whatever other physical requirements there should be.   
      
   Of course, that still leaves open the question of what the required   
   minimum carried weight and distance should be: if it's set to a level   
   that excludes a significant fraction of otherwise qualified applicants   
   (whether men or women), it would generally be nice to know that it was   
   determined based on actual statistics of situations encountered on the   
   job (rather than merely on a preconceived notion such as that "we only   
   want the biggest, strongest and manliest firemen").  Which, of course,   
   it might well be; I only have the foggiest notion of what working as a   
   firefighter actually involves, so I'm not contesting that point.   
      
   --   
   Ilmari Karonen   
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