XPost: alt.religion.wicca, alt.arts.poetry.comments, alt.magick   
   From: shez@oldcity.f2s.com   
      
   In article <4225EB8E.5010008@skypoint.com>, Dale Houstman   
    writes   
   >   
   >   
   >Tom wrote:   
   >> "Jane Asher's Vagina"  wrote in message   
   >> news:1w6ghleaieht3$.1e99jreoeamyz.dlg@40tude.net...   
   >>   
   >>>On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:13:42 +0000, Shez wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>>People who practice the art and craft of magick see something in the   
   >>>>world that you don't see, its that simple..   
   >>>   
   >>>Sure is. They make shit up and convince themselves it's real.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> Let me break it to you gently.  You do the same thing.  And, just like   
   >> everybody else, you strongly object to being accused of doing so.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >   
   >Certainly many people are self-deluded but it pure post-modernist tripe   
   >to insist that all opinions are equal, as tempting as that lazy attitude   
   >might be nowadays. A person who believes the moon is made of green   
   >cheese may be as wrong as a person who believes it is made entirely of   
   >silver, but the mistakes are on a different order, and one is closer to   
   >some version of the truth. Most people delude themselves into thinking   
   >the universe gives a blue spit about them - and the human race in   
   >general - but the one who thinks this is due to the Little People is   
   >less likely to be correct than one who believes it is due to some   
   >unexplained yet probably material connection between "star stuff" and   
   >the makeup of the human matter. After all, science works upon   
   >probabilities, and some things are simply more probable. Does this mean   
   >scuience has all the answers to life? Hardly, since human life is full   
   >of imaginative abstracts, but applying the rule that the truer answer is   
   >most likely the simplest answer, believing in "magick"  - while   
   >comforting to the person who believes in it (and there is nothing   
   >"wrong" sbout seeking a modicum of control and comfort in this world) is   
   >to believe in something that all experience and observation says is most   
   >improbable.   
      
   Excuse me I said I was a witch, I did not claim nor did anyone else here   
   claim to beleive in the little people, whatever they are. Or that the   
   moon is made of green cheese. Or silver.   
   Your rely on your own internal picture of what you think a witch should   
   be. That is society's idea of what a witch should be. Its not a witches   
   idea of what he or she actually is. The Christian religions used witches   
   as a convenient scapegoat, they painted a picture of witches that was   
   totally untrue and totally biased.. And they did it deliberately   
   That's like saying all people who use computers are geeks. Because they   
   use computers.   
   >   
   >The strange thing about - say - the Wicca movement is that they   
   >celebrate and mimic the supposed behavior that was assigned to victims   
   >who were innocent of that behavior.   
      
   I don't remember anyone saying they were wiccans either. a lot of the   
   people here are not wiccan they simply come here because they find like   
   minded people to chat to.   
   > Of all those "witches" who were   
   >condemned, tortured, and killed (and there were not as many as Wicca   
   >likes to say there were) not ONE was a witch, but only the innocent   
   >fodder for a political or religious porgram fueled by hysteria, rumor,   
   >envy, hatred, etc.   
      
   Yes the burning times, its a load of codswallop I know that, We also   
   know that those who were accused were often accused out of spite, or   
   greed. and most of those who were condemned were in fact good   
   Christians, with a sprinkling of the mentally ill, or those who were old   
   and senile.   
   That has nothing to do with witches..   
   Witches and witchcraft has become popular with the younger set, they   
   don't know what it is, or how you do it, but they had fun inventing it.   
   It has nothing to do with actual witchcraft, or witches. Most of whom   
   you would pass in the street and never know who they were, You might   
   even have friends who are witches. They don't talk to outsiders much...   
   Can you blame us. Their is always someone who needs a scapegoat and we   
   have always filled that role.   
   However most witches even during the mass hysteria of the so called   
   burning times, were quite safe, some of them even helped hunt down so   
   called witches, those who knew them wouldnt turn them in, they were   
   often the local midwife, and healer and losing them would have been a   
   huge blow to a village. Or clan.   
      
   > The few who admitted to this "transgression" did so   
   >beneath torture or because they were mentally incapacitated, which isn't   
   >a surprise given than schizophrenics and other mental "incompetents"   
   >were often singled out as being in league with the devil, or some such.   
      
   Witches are not devil worshipers, not Satanists, they are magick users,   
   its an art and a craft, you can be of any religion or none, Their were   
   and are Christian witches.. Religion has nothing to do with magick.   
   Magick is a talent like any other, its an art and a craft that can be   
   studied and practised   
   >   
   >So the modern identification with these innocetns is based on the word   
   >of their persecutors and their accusers.   
      
   Your assuming that we beleive what you beleive which is nonsense.. I am   
   not a Christian never have been, I see Christianity as a fairy story, a   
   myth built on faith and need... Mithras is a pagan god who's story is   
   almost identical to Christ... and Mithras was based on an even older   
   religion and so it goes on. Most of the roman soldiers who served   
   Constantine were Mithras worshipers, and it would have been foolish of   
   Constantine to upset his soldiers, Christianity and Mithrayism were   
   melded together which satisfied the soldiers and the priests.   
   Satanism is a side shoot of Christianity... the secondary god in the   
   system. If your not a Christian then why would you beleive in the   
   Christian anti Christ !   
   >   
   >In effect, decalring oneself to be a "witch" (as harmless as it is) is   
   >not unlike declaring oneself to be an eater of children based on ancient   
   >accounts of Jewish (or Christian) behavior. One is playing the role   
   >assigned by the enemy.   
      
   In the Jewish religion Shatan, or Satan is gods advocate who acts as a   
   prosecuting attorney. The devils advocate in the Vatican douse a similar   
   job.   
   Satan in the Christian religion is an amalgamation of pagan gods, like   
   Hern, pan ect. Gods who were horned or hoofed.. Horns represented power,   
   sexual, Physical and spiritual To tie the Satan character to such   
   ancient gods was a stroke of genius, you then create an evil being that   
   people are frightend off and you tell them that only your god can save   
   them from the evil one.   
   Some of those early church fathers should have been in the advertising   
   and media business they would have done well.   
   Satan is a construct to strengthen the early church and to frighten the   
   people into allowing the church to have all the power over their lives   
   it wanted.   
   When you actually think about it, what sort of God would Jehovah be if   
   he cant even beat his arch nemesis.. Satan is supposedly easy to beat...   
   was thrown down from heaven for his vanity, and who was only an angel to   
   begin with.   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)