XPost: alt.religion.wicca, alt.arts.poetry.comments, alt.writing   
   XPost: alt.magick   
   From: dmh7@skypoint.com   
      
   Diana wrote:   
   > Pertial wrote:   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   >>>>Name one magician whose magic is responsible for ANY   
   >>>>change in the world at all.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>Embarassing, isn't it?   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>P   
   >>>   
   >>>You. Me.   
   >>   
   >>I never heard of you, and you never heard of me.   
   >>Doesn't sound like much effect.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   > Sure it does. In what seems an offhanded way. Words contain ideas. When   
   > they are voiced (written or spoken) they have the power to repel, heal,   
   > inform or what have you. (They bring about some action --physical and   
   > mental.)   
   >   
   > They have the power to cause revolts, bring people together (lets say   
   > for humanitarian reasons like the victims of the Tsunami), or to change   
   > a person in the smallest way.   
   >   
   > Nonverbal communication is similar. With a look you can cause someone   
   > to react in a specific way if they let you.   
   >   
   > ---   
   > It's the "no man is an island" concept --for both people and things   
   > because everything is dynamic.   
   >   
   > I might be a little vague and muddled. Call me on it.   
      
   This might be termed an attempt to win an argument by reducing one of   
   its elements to nothing. IF "magick" is merely to be considered as the   
   effect words or actions may have upon others, then how is it different   
   from bowling, tree-trimming, and packaging design? IF "magick" is simply   
   to be understood as everything then it is - all in all - nothing. Surely   
   if a group of people is going to organize around a concept it has to   
   have more distinction than "words have effects." Well - duh. But words   
   aren't "magic": the precise evolution of their forms and sounds may be   
   unknowable, but language-formation and the effects of language are   
   fairly well studied and documented. It is a science. So we don't need   
   magicians to point out the obvious, which is about all they ever point   
   out as far as I can see. Their only other function is to purposefully   
   obfuscate their goals and processes to the point that the phenomenon   
   cannot be verified even by the producer of the phenomenon, so they have   
   to resort to such ephermal terms as "luck" and "spiritual energies" to   
   convince not only others but even themselves that their pursuit of some   
   personal validity is not a total sham.   
      
   dmh   
      
   >   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)