XPost: alt.religion.wicca, alt.arts.poetry.comments, alt.magick
From: Aunty_Kreist@satanickittens.net
"Peter J Ross" wrote in message
news:slrnd2ch3l.43r.gadfly@nntp.petitmorte.net...
> On Wednesday 02 March, Aunty Kreist wrote in rec.arts.poems:
>
> > "Dale Houstman" wrote in message
> > news:42262081.7080700@skypoint.com...
> >>
> >> Jani wrote:
> >> > "Dale Houstman" wrote in message
> >> > news:4225EB8E.5010008@skypoint.com...
> >> >
> >> >>Tom wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>"Jane Asher's Vagina" wrote in
> >> >>>message
> >> >>>news:1w6ghleaieht3$.1e99jreoeamyz.dlg@40tude.net...
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:13:42 +0000, Shez wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>>People who practice the art and craft of magick see something in
the
> >> >>>>>world that you don't see, its that simple..
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>Sure is. They make shit up and convince themselves it's real.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Let me break it to you gently. You do the same thing. And, just
like
> >> >>>everybody else, you strongly object to being accused of doing so.
> >> >>
> >> >>Certainly many people are self-deluded but it pure post-modernist
tripe
> > to
> >> >>insist that all opinions are equal, as tempting as that lazy attitude
> >> >>might be nowadays. A person who believes the moon is made of green
> > cheese
> >> >>may be as wrong as a person who believes it is made entirely of
silver,
> >> >>but the mistakes are on a different order, and one is closer to some
> >> >>version of the truth. Most people delude themselves into thinking the
> >> >>universe gives a blue spit about them - and the human race in
general -
> >> >>but the one who thinks this is due to the Little People is less
likely
> > to
> >> >>be correct than one who believes it is due to some unexplained yet
> >> >>probably material connection between "star stuff" and the makeup of
the
> >> >>human matter. After all, science works upon probabilities, and some
> > things
> >> >>are simply more probable. Does this mean scuience has all the answers
to
> >> >>life? Hardly, since human life is full of imaginative abstracts, but
> >> >>applying the rule that the truer answer is most likely the simplest
> >> >>answer, believing in "magick" - while comforting to the person who
> >> >>believes in it (and there is nothing "wrong" sbout seeking a modicum
of
> >> >>control and comfort in this world) is to believe in something that
all
> >> >>experience and observation says is most improbable.
> >> >>
> >> >>The strange thing about - say - the Wicca movement is that they
> > celebrate
> >> >>and mimic the supposed behavior that was assigned to victims who were
> >> >>innocent of that behavior. Of all those "witches" who were condemned,
> >> >>tortured, and killed (and there were not as many as Wicca likes to
say
> >> >>there were) not ONE was a witch, but only the innocent fodder for a
> >> >>political or religious porgram fueled by hysteria, rumor, envy,
hatred,
> >> >>etc. The few who admitted to this "transgression" did so beneath
torture
> >> >>or because they were mentally incapacitated, which isn't a surprise
> > given
> >> >>than schizophrenics and other mental "incompetents" were often
singled
> > out
> >> >>as being in league with the devil, or some such.
> >> >>
> >> >>So the modern identification with these innocetns is based on the
word
> > of
> >> >>their persecutors and their accusers.
> >> >>
> >> >>In effect, decalring oneself to be a "witch" (as harmless as it is)
is
> > not
> >> >>unlike declaring oneself to be an eater of children based on ancient
> >> >>accounts of Jewish (or Christian) behavior. One is playing the role
> >> >>assigned by the enemy.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Can I just point out that none of the people from ARW who are
> > contributing
> >> > to this thread are Wiccan.
> >>
> >> Didn't say they were - only used Wiccan as one example of a modern
> >> "magick" movement. There are other forms of course; from the easily
> >> amused folks who read the Horoscope to the creepy guy who sells unicorn
> >> posters and herbs at the New Age shopping mall. And many in-between:
> >> even fundamentalist Christians are believers in magic, although they
> >> like to consider them "miracles." No difference all in all.
> >>
> >> The wider point is that there is no observable manifestation of
"magick"
> >> in the world, and that the only "proof" of its existence is either
> >> heresay, madness, or the mutterings of Spanish Inquisition types. If
the
> >> "magick" folks have a grasp of history, it seems to be a very slippery
> > one.
> >>
> >> dmh
>
> > I think many people unfamiliar with "magic" have a sort of idea of
wizened
> > wizards, and Harry Potter type spells. Real magic is more subtle than
that.
>
> Philip Pullmann and Ursula LeGuin, for instance, are more subtle than
> Harry Potter. So are Circe and Meg Merrilees, if you prefer the
> classics.
>
> *Real* magic involves the suspension of disbelief until you put the
> book down. Shakespeare was a great magician; turgid drivellers like
> Crowley weren't.
>
> > A good example that most non-magicals can identify with....take Reiki,
for
> > instance. Reiki is a practice of manipulating the body's energies,
either
> > internally, or sending those energies out. This is actually a form of
magic.
>
> Or a form of pseudo-science, to put it another way.
It's an easy referrence to refer to, because most muggles know what it is.
> Or a scam, to put it yet another way.
I've seen beneficial results from it, so I'll have to disagree. Not saying
that all practicioners aren't frauds, because many are, same as psychics.
>
> I can't speak authoritatively for Dale, but I don't think you'll
> persuade him by citing Eastern superstitions any more than by citing
> Western ones.
I think he'd disbelieve the sky is blue until given scientific eveidence. :)
> > There are also many types of martial arts that manipulate and control
either
> > the body's energies, or the energies around them.
>
> WTF are "energies", and how they be measured in a laboratory where the
> "energised" person's sleeves are checked for hidden Aces?
You cannot measure such things, IMO.
>
> > I do agree with that anyone who claims they can make trees talk, or turn
> > someone into a mouse belongs in the nuthatch. ;)
>
> > Magic is simply energy, to make it easy to comprehend to folks.
>
> M = mc˛?
>
> Well, I suppose it beats the kook who was explaining in sci.physics a
> while ago that E = mc [sic].
>
> But it's still a ridiculous superstition. Why can't people pay
> attention to the real world around them instead of having to invent
> tedious "energies" and such stuff? Is reality really too hard for the
> human mind to accept?
Why? What's so hot about the real world? I'd rather enjoy my Hogwarts and
Trolls and Armoured Bears. Don't kill my buzz, man!
> PJR :-)
> --
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>
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