XPost: alt.religion.wicca, alt.arts.poetry.comments, alt.magick   
   From: Aunty_Kreist@satanickittens.net   
      
   "Peter J Ross"  wrote in message   
   news:slrnd2ch3l.43r.gadfly@nntp.petitmorte.net...   
   > On Wednesday 02 March, Aunty Kreist wrote in rec.arts.poems:   
   >   
   > > "Dale Houstman"  wrote in message   
   > > news:42262081.7080700@skypoint.com...   
   > >>   
   > >> Jani wrote:   
   > >> > "Dale Houstman"  wrote in message   
   > >> > news:4225EB8E.5010008@skypoint.com...   
   > >> >   
   > >> >>Tom wrote:   
   > >> >>   
   > >> >>>"Jane Asher's Vagina"  wrote in   
   > >> >>>message   
   > >> >>>news:1w6ghleaieht3$.1e99jreoeamyz.dlg@40tude.net...   
   > >> >>>   
   > >> >>>>On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:13:42 +0000, Shez wrote:   
   > >> >>>>   
   > >> >>>>>People who practice the art and craft of magick see something in   
   the   
   > >> >>>>>world that you don't see, its that simple..   
   > >> >>>>   
   > >> >>>>Sure is. They make shit up and convince themselves it's real.   
   > >> >>>   
   > >> >>>Let me break it to you gently.  You do the same thing.  And, just   
   like   
   > >> >>>everybody else, you strongly object to being accused of doing so.   
   > >> >>   
   > >> >>Certainly many people are self-deluded but it pure post-modernist   
   tripe   
   > > to   
   > >> >>insist that all opinions are equal, as tempting as that lazy attitude   
   > >> >>might be nowadays. A person who believes the moon is made of green   
   > > cheese   
   > >> >>may be as wrong as a person who believes it is made entirely of   
   silver,   
   > >> >>but the mistakes are on a different order, and one is closer to some   
   > >> >>version of the truth. Most people delude themselves into thinking the   
   > >> >>universe gives a blue spit about them - and the human race in   
   general -   
   > >> >>but the one who thinks this is due to the Little People is less   
   likely   
   > > to   
   > >> >>be correct than one who believes it is due to some unexplained yet   
   > >> >>probably material connection between "star stuff" and the makeup of   
   the   
   > >> >>human matter. After all, science works upon probabilities, and some   
   > > things   
   > >> >>are simply more probable. Does this mean scuience has all the answers   
   to   
   > >> >>life? Hardly, since human life is full of imaginative abstracts, but   
   > >> >>applying the rule that the truer answer is most likely the simplest   
   > >> >>answer, believing in "magick"  - while comforting to the person who   
   > >> >>believes in it (and there is nothing "wrong" sbout seeking a modicum   
   of   
   > >> >>control and comfort in this world) is to believe in something that   
   all   
   > >> >>experience and observation says is most improbable.   
   > >> >>   
   > >> >>The strange thing about - say - the Wicca movement is that they   
   > > celebrate   
   > >> >>and mimic the supposed behavior that was assigned to victims who were   
   > >> >>innocent of that behavior. Of all those "witches" who were condemned,   
   > >> >>tortured, and killed (and there were not as many as Wicca likes to   
   say   
   > >> >>there were) not ONE was a witch, but only the innocent fodder for a   
   > >> >>political or religious porgram fueled by hysteria, rumor, envy,   
   hatred,   
   > >> >>etc. The few who admitted to this "transgression" did so beneath   
   torture   
   > >> >>or because they were mentally incapacitated, which isn't a surprise   
   > > given   
   > >> >>than schizophrenics and other mental "incompetents" were often   
   singled   
   > > out   
   > >> >>as being in league with the devil, or some such.   
   > >> >>   
   > >> >>So the modern identification with these innocetns is based on the   
   word   
   > > of   
   > >> >>their persecutors and their accusers.   
   > >> >>   
   > >> >>In effect, decalring oneself to be a "witch" (as harmless as it is)   
   is   
   > > not   
   > >> >>unlike declaring oneself to be an eater of children based on ancient   
   > >> >>accounts of Jewish (or Christian) behavior. One is playing the role   
   > >> >>assigned by the enemy.   
   > >> >   
   > >> >   
   > >> > Can I just point out that none of the people from ARW who are   
   > > contributing   
   > >> > to this thread are Wiccan.   
   > >>   
   > >> Didn't say they were - only used Wiccan as one example of a modern   
   > >> "magick" movement. There are other forms of course; from the easily   
   > >> amused folks who read the Horoscope to the creepy guy who sells unicorn   
   > >> posters and herbs at the New Age shopping mall. And many in-between:   
   > >> even fundamentalist Christians are believers in magic, although they   
   > >> like to consider them "miracles." No difference all in all.   
   > >>   
   > >> The wider point is that there is no observable manifestation of   
   "magick"   
   > >> in the world, and that the only "proof" of its existence is either   
   > >> heresay, madness, or the mutterings of Spanish Inquisition types. If   
   the   
   > >> "magick" folks have a grasp of history, it seems to be a very slippery   
   > > one.   
   > >>   
   > >> dmh   
   >   
   > > I think many people unfamiliar with "magic" have a sort of idea of   
   wizened   
   > > wizards, and Harry Potter type spells. Real magic is more subtle than   
   that.   
   >   
   > Philip Pullmann and Ursula LeGuin, for instance, are more subtle than   
   > Harry Potter. So are Circe and Meg Merrilees, if you prefer the   
   > classics.   
      
      
   Just wanted to briefly add that I just finished Pullman's His Dark Materials   
   trilogy. I loved it! I thought his anti-Christian agenda was a bit too   
   evident in the third book, though, but loved them none the less.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)