[continued from previous message]   
      
   >> The "kook" site was created to expose Usenet kooks in a humorous manner.   
   >>  "Wranglers" would engage in discussions with people in various Usenet   
   >> groups, searching for racists and assorted nutjobs whose buttons were   
   >> easily pressed.  They would goad these "kooks" into having a "meltdown"   
   >> online, then cross-post their meltdown to alt.kooks.  The other members   
   >> would then join in, creating further meltdowns.  They would also give   
   >> out various "awards" to the various "kooks."   
   >   
   > I'm aware of that, and I've written about the same thing; it's in their   
   > archives. By the time I arrived, though, members of the group were   
   > priaarily doing the same thing to non-kooss (like the lawyer who later   
   > took them to court and ended the group as a significant player).   
   >   
   > What PJR did, when he got control of the group as FNVW, was bring them   
   > into RAP and aapc, and use them against anyone he considered an enemy -   
   > his "enemies list" as I said.   
      
   That's ridiculous, George.   
      
   PJR came to AAPC and RAP because he is a poet.  He found some kooks here   
   (notably you and your Donkey -- and later, myself, when I was stupid   
   enough to believe you), and proceeded to make you his "chew toys."   
      
      
      
   >> Since you and Will were considered to be "kooks," PJR cross-posted your   
   >> "meltdowns" to alt.kooks, which brought some of his fellow members (like   
   >> Cujo and Aratzio) here.   
   >   
   > Maybe he did consider everyone he used alt.kooks against to be a "kook,"   
   > but that includes a lot of people who obviously weren't. Either he was   
   > the delusional one, or he was misusing the group.   
      
   AFAICS, his choices were correct.   
      
   He attacked people who weren't kooks, but that doesn't mean that he was   
   awarding tinfoil caps.   
      
   You are, and I say this as respectfully and non-combatively as possible,   
   most definitely a kook.  You think that you're a great poet, get   
   butt-hurt if someone doesn't heap unqualified praises on your work,   
   believe that everyone else is involved in some vast conspiracy against   
   you, and retaliate by calling everyone by childish names.   
      
   I'm sure that PJR had a lot of fun hearing you whine about how various   
   "Teams" were persecuting you and your Donkey over the years.   
      
   Hell, you even came out in support of MENSA in order to back up a total   
   nutjob like the late, unlamented Pickles.   
      
      
   >>> So he decided to play   
   >>> elitist snob. Of course, he didn't reject them because they weren't   
   >>> "good" or "amsart" enough to be on his team - if he only wanted good   
   >>> writers and smart thinkers, he wouldn't have had nonentities like Cujo   
   >>> de Sockpuppet on it.   
   >>   
   >> Whether PJR would have been willing to take Corey and I as allies is a   
   >> moot point, as only PJR would know whether it was true.   
   >   
   > All one has to do is read his posts to and about both of you; he   
   > considered the two of you as equally illiterate and kooky. That's how he   
   > treated anyone who wasn't an ally. Most of the people he treated that   
   > way left - he "drove them away" as Will puts it. Will, of course, never   
   > left, which is why he attracted more and more of their heat.   
      
   You've got things backwards there, George.   
      
   When Will first came to AAPC (approx. 25 years ago), Google Groups had   
   just picked up Usenet Groups -- changing their basic dynamic: Usenet   
   Groups had originally been limited to professional writers, historians,   
   experts, etc., who subscribed to Newsreaders.  Google Groups made these   
   groups available to the rabble.   
      
   Invariably, each group attracted its share of narcissistic personality   
   types who felt that they were experts on that particular group's topic,   
   and proceeded to dominate the group by making incessant posts wherein   
   they exhibited their amazing knowledge of the same.   
      
   Initially, the professionals tolerated the riff-raff, choosing to ignore   
   them, rather than to get caught up in flame wars (hence the well known   
   "Don't Feed the Trolls" policy).  This worked for many of the trolls,   
   however, stubborn troll types like your Donkey only doubled down on   
   their efforts to dominate the group.   
      
   Eventually, the Donkeys won out.  A Donkey will always win out, because   
   a Donkey will only keep increasing its jackassery until everyone else   
   has given up and left.   
      
   In the case of your particular Donkey; he was an illiterate buffoon who   
   attempted to hijack every thread, and to cram his incompetent "poetry"   
   down everyone else's throats.  Granted, he didn't come here to   
   intentionally piss people off -- but his utter lack of netiquette   
   achieved the same end.   
      
   PJR was the last of the first wave of members who joined the Usenet   
   group once the Internet opened it up.  He had associated with the   
   original experts, and with the second generation poets who joined at the   
   same time as himself.  When Will had driven everyone away, PJR took to   
   dropping by sporadically to 1) smack Will around, and 2) to try to take   
   the group back for the regulars.   
      
      
      
   >> He did attempt to steer me away from "Team Dunce," wondering aloud how I   
   >> would feel when I realized that my "teammates" were illiterate buffoons.   
   >>  Unfortunately, I mistook PJR's behavior as abusive, whereas he was he   
   >> was actually retaliating against the group trolls.   
   >   
   > Of course he was deliberately abusive to you: he called you names,   
   > flamed your poetry, and even called you an illiterate buffoon when it   
   > suited him. Hw sis nor xonaiswe you (or Corey) to be a poet, and he did   
   > not want you as an ally. Deal with it.   
      
   Yes, he was deliberately abusive to me.  I saw him as a troll, believed   
   your stories about alt.kooks being a pack of Usenet "thugs," and   
   attacked him.   
      
   To say that he didn't want me as an ally (and I'm sure that he didn't)   
   is beside the point.  PJR never had a "Team" and therefore wasn't   
   interested in recruiting teammates.   
      
   I like to think that PJR came to be somewhat fond of me over the as, as   
   I have come to be so regarding him.  However, if such is not the case,   
   so be it.   
      
      
   >> I have since offered a public apology to PJR.   
   >   
   > And his reply was? __________________________   
      
   IDK.  Probably something along the lines of "I still won't go out with   
   you."   
      
   >>> He wanted meat puppets, yes men who'd be willing to   
   >>> stay in subordinate role, not independent thinkers.   
   >>   
   >> Again, a moot point, as only PJR would know what PJR wanted.   
   >   
   > It's stupid to say you can't judge a person's thoughts by what they do.   
   > You, for instance, inferred from his flaming of Will and me that he was   
   > giving you friendly advice (which is silly, as he was in no way your   
   > friend). Judging a person's thoughts by their actions is in fact more   
   > reliable than judging them by what they tell you about them.   
      
   WTF are you spewing, George?   
      
   I said that *you* are the one who had misinformed me about PJR; and that   
   it is impossible for either of us to know what PJR thought.   
      
   As to whether PJR was my friend, that's a matter of subjectivity.   
      
   I like to think of us as friendly adversaries in a series of ongoing   
   debates.  If PJR thinks differently, that's his subjective opinion.   
      
   PJR's opinion won't change mine (based on how I felt about him), anymore   
   than my opinion will change his (based on his feelings toward me).   
      
   Online relationships can be complicated, and multi-faceted, George.  Not   
   everything is good/bad, black/white, them/us, George Dance/The World as   
   you purport.   
      
      
   >> I can, however, state with certainty that he did not want anyone to be   
   >> defending, supporting, and further enabling the trolls -- which is what   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)