[continued from previous message]   
      
   >>>>> MMP has told us he was abused as a boy, and I think that fact is key.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> I didn't remember this fact but it isn't at all surprising.   
   >>>   
   >>> It just came up as a casual aside in one of the threads he opened to   
   >>> flame "My Father's House," and I'm sure he'd call my use of it "out of   
   >>> context" as he was trying to make a different point. The actual context,   
   >>> of all those threads, was that he was claiming to have discovered that   
   >>> "emotional and physical child abuse" and in addition "the probability of   
   >>> sexual abuse," in my upbringing.   
   >>>   
   >>> Then one day, out of the blue, he added this comment:   
   >>>   
   >>> "I'm sure I received much worse from my father than you did from yours.   
   >>> But I *never* willingly submitted to it."   
   >>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/vhO7k   
   QSMqw/m/9XUjiy-GCQAJ?hl=en   
   >>>   
   >>> His point was the second sentence, but I found the first sentence more   
   >>> shocking.   
   >>> He imagined that I had repeatedly experienced emotional, physical, and   
   >>> even sexual abuse from my father; but he was also convinced that he had   
   >>> "received MUCH SORSE" from his own father than anything he imagined   
   >>> happening to me. (stress added)   
   >>   
   >> You're projecting again, George.  My father was never even remotely   
   >> sexually abusive.  Unlike your father, for whom you claimed to have   
   >> bared your bottom every night, my father never had me remove a stitch of   
   >> clothing.  Nor, like your father, did he ever so much as touch, much   
   >> less smack, my rear end.   
   >   
   > Now that is interesting. Your father used to beat you regularly, in   
   > addition to his "punishments," but not on your read end. Where exactly   
   > did he regularly hit you?   
      
   That should be clear to you from my previous statements.  I said that I   
   stood up to him, and fought back.   
      
   If you imagine the famous fight scene between Luke and Dragline in "Cool   
   Hand Luke" -- only without the boxing gloves, and replace Luke with a   
   12-year old boy, you'll get the picture.   
      
      
   >>> ""I ran from my parents when they wanted to punish me. And when they   
   >>> caught me (and they always did), I fought tooth and nail until I was   
   >>> beaten into submission. And my punishment was always worse for having   
   >>> fought back -- but I only ran a little farther and fought back a little   
   >>> harder the next time."   
   >>>   
   >>> I found that even more disturbing. Fight and flight are not rational   
   >>> responses, but animal ones based on fear. He was afraid; but of what?   
   >>> Not of being beaten, obviously; even the most scared boy would not incur   
   >>> two beatings because he was afraid of one. Hia "puniahmwnra" had to be   
   >>> something far worse.   
   >>>   
   >>> That is as much as he revealed, but it was revealing enough.   
   >>   
   >> You're projecting again, George.   
   >   
   > No, MMP. I was never afraid enough to react that way to my father's   
   > punishments. Perhaps I originally reacted like that to being punished,   
   > back when it was my mother or Granny doing the hitting; but I'd   
   > definitely outgrown that by age six.   
      
   That's the point, George.  You weren't afraid.  You accepted it as the   
   norm.   
      
   >> I ran from corporal punishment because I have a natural dislike for   
   >> physical pain.   
   >   
   > Virtually everyone dislikes physical pain. But not all of them will   
   > blindly lash out or run away out of fear of it.   
      
   I disagree.  Only someone who has been thoroughly broken in spirit will   
   passively submit themselves to physical punishment.   
      
   >> But let's focus on the second sentence (mentioned above), which you   
   >> correctly noted was my point: "I *never* willingly submitted to   
   >> [corporal punishment]."   
   >>   
   >> Unlike you, I was a child of spirit.  You'll note that I also said that   
   >> I "fought back."  I meant that literally.  I was a holy terror as a   
   >> child, and did some pretty horrible things which I prefer not to   
   >> elaborate on here.   
   >   
   > I'm sure you did. Your whole family, in fact, sounds like a terror:   
   > ehildren would hit children, parents would hit children, children would   
   > hit parents. The only thing you haven't told us is whether your parents   
   > hit each other.   
      
   Children fight.  Parents punish children for fighting.  Back in the day,   
   parents usually did so with some form of corporal punishment.  That was   
   par for the course at the time.   
      
   But I have never known any other children who would dutifully report to   
   their bedroom, pull down their pajama pants, and lie there bare-assed   
   waiting for their father to spank them.  That's really too pathetic for   
   words.   
      
   >> As I'd also noted in relation to your "My Father's House" poem; I cannot   
   >> imagine a child so broken in spirit that he would lie in bed with his   
   >> pajama pants pulled down every night, waiting bare-assed for his father   
   >> to come in and spank him/whip him with a belt.   
   >   
   >> The thought of a child that broken fills me with sadness.   
   >   
   > Leaving aside your lies (for humorous effect or not) about what I   
   > actually wrote in my poem or what I told you later, Lying Michael, I'll   
   > repeat that I can imagine a child so scared that he'd fight or run   
   > mindlessly, even though he'd know the result would be a beating in   
   > addition to the dreaded "punishment".   
      
   Why did "Cool Hand Luke" keep picking himself up and facing Dragline --   
   even though all of the other inmates (Dragline included) were telling   
   him to "Stay down, Luke"?  It's something in one's nature -- a spirit   
   that refuses to be subjected to any authority; that refuses to be   
   punished for its acts, that refuses to be subjected to the will of   
   another.   
      
   As an Ayn Rand fan, I'd have thought that you would be one of the first   
   people to recognize that spirit.  But then you don't really seem to   
   *get* what Rand is all about.   
      
   >>> Some comments about his relationship with his mother, as well as his   
   >>> father, are probably in order here, but I'd prefer to deal with one   
   >>> topic at a tie.   
   >>   
   >> Since you never met them, you are certainly not the one to make any such   
   >> comments.   
   >   
   > Now, that's ironic coming from someone who loves to comment on others'   
   > parents when he's never met any of them. Unlike you, though, I'll base   
   > my comments on what you've actually said about them.   
   >   
   >> My mother was a wonderful parent.  She was fun to be with, spent all of   
   >> her day with my siblings and I, and was always encouraging our   
   >> creativity.  (She was also beautiful, looked like a movie star, well   
   >> educated/a school teacher, and was loved by everyone who met her.)  I   
   >> have nothing but good memories of her.  My mother thought that I (and my   
   >> siblings) were the greatest children ever born -- and inadvertently   
   >> contributed to any narcissistic tendencies I might have today.  She   
   >> enrolled me in dance and music classes, the Cub Scouts, bought me   
   >> presents for each of my recitals (including a pet lamb), and was   
   >> convinced that I was going to grow up to be a movie star.   
   >   
   > That's helpful; it doesn't contradict my theories but rather supports   
   > them.   
      
   So you say, although you haven't expressed them (or, more probably,   
   formed them) as yet.   
      
      
   >> She did believe in corporal punishment, as did most parents of her   
   >> generation.  IIRC, you said the same thing in defense of your parents --   
   >> although keeping you in the house doing chores all day, refusing to   
   >> allow you in the living because "boys are filthy," and whipping your   
   >> bare ass every night go far beyond corporal punishment.   
   >   
   > Incidentally, Lying Michael, they go far beyond anything you've read in   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)