[continued from previous message]   
      
   >>> Ginsberg's) right to talk about the subject, and it died off. AFAIK, you   
   >>> were the first to revive it.   
   >>>   
   >>>> I'm   
   >>>> sure that it must have come up once or twice in the 15 - 20 years of   
   >>>> flame wars before my arrival -- but whatever.  I'm pretty sure that I   
   >>>> was the one who'd introduced it into that particular argument.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> In an attempt to defend Ginsberg, Pickles told us that he had been to   
   >>>> NAMBLA meetings, listened to speakers at NAMBLA conventions, and taken   
   >>>> NAMBLA members out to dinner on several occasions, and could attest that   
   >>>> they were all good people.   
   >>>   
   >>> Stephan said a lot of things, on memory and without check, some of which   
   >>> were demonstrably untrue. (For example, his alleged dinners with NAMBLA   
   >>> were said to take place during Dylan's Rolling Thunder tour, which was   
   >>> years before NAMBLA was even founded.) there was no reason to trust   
   >>> his memory of any ot that.   
   >>>   
   >>>> NancyGene quoted posts Pickles had made in another forum, wherein he'd   
   >>>> argued that "legal age" was a meaningless concept, that the majority of   
   >>>> civilizations and cultures had no such age, that incest was not only   
   >>>> common in other cultures, but was a desirable thing.   
   >>>   
   >>> Yes, through all this NG continued to troll Stephan, and posted a lot   
   >>> of scurrilous claims about what he'd said (real, misprepresented, or   
   >>> completely   
   >>> made up). I didn't bother to check them, but (having been trolled by NG   
   >>> myself) I would nt vouch for their accuracy.   
   >>>   
   >>> IIRC, Ginsberg said that "legal age" was an arbitrary concept, which of   
   >>> course it is (just look at the USA, where the age of consent is   
   >>> different from   
   >>> state to state). he did not say that there was no age of cnnsent in   
   >>> other   
   >>> states, just that it varies. (For example, in much of the the Moslem   
   >>> world,   
   >>> the age at which a girl can be married is 9.) As for incest, NG found   
   >>> and   
   >>> quoted a statement Stephan made ridiculing "rape" charge laid aginat  a   
   >>> mother   
   >>> who'd had sex with her 17-year-old son.   
   >>>   
   >>>> Pickles not only defended his stance in said quotes, but further   
   >>>> informed us that he'd had sex with 14-year old girls (impregnating one   
   >>>> of them), and told us that he felt it was perfectly fine to have sex   
   >>>> with a 13-year old...   
   >>>   
   >>> I remember him claiming to have had sex with a 14-year-old he had   
   >>> married,   
   >>> he could have mentioned a second one - I did warned you not to take   
   >>> his statements at face value). He did point out that such marriages were   
   >>> legal under traditional Jewish law (just as they are in traditional   
   >>> Musim lae).   
   >>> IOW, he made the mistake of trying to respond reasonably with people who   
   >>> were   
   >>> trolling him.   
   >>>   
   >>>> but that if you went for anyone younger, you were   
   >>>> risking getting hurt because children that young were unable to maintain   
   >>>> lasting romantic relationships.   
   >>>   
   >>> As I've told you, children who haven't reached puberty don't even have a   
   >>> sex drive. (You, quoting some psychologist, disagreed.) And even   
   >>> teenagers   
   >>> above the age of consent are usually unable to maintain lasting romantic   
   >>> relationships.   
   >>>   
   >>>> Nice guy, that Pickles.   
   >>>   
   >>>> Since you have always been jealous of Jim's popularity here,   
   >>>   
   >>> Now that is not true, Lying Michael. Jim and I had a great relationship   
   >>> before you three formed Team Monkey and began to troll and flood the   
   >>> group   
   >>> with attacks on both Stefan and Will.   
   >>>   
   >>>> and since   
   >>>> Pickles was a friend of your lifetime ally, Will Donkey,   
   >>>   
   >>> Now, that is absurd, Lying Michael. Will and I have never even met; and   
   >>> while I had as good a relationship with him on the group as I did with   
   >>> Jim, we were hardly conversing in those days.   
   >>>   
   >>>> you jumped into   
   >>>> the fray as well.   
   >>>   
   >>>> You not only supported both Ginsberg and Pickles   
   >>>   
   >>> I agreed with both of them (and SCOTUS and most legal scholars) that   
   >>> NAMBLA had a First Amendment right to talk about such things.   
   >>>   
   >>> , but   
   >>>> you mistakenly claimed that NAMBLA had done more to support LGBT rights   
   >>>> than any other organization.   
   >>>   
   >>> No, Lying Michael. I told you that I agreed that gay sex for anyone   
   >>> above the age of consent should be legal, pointed out that NAMBLA was   
   >>> the only   
   >>> group in Canada campaigning for that, and even called you a "homophobe"   
   >>> when   
   >>> you insisted that it should continue to be illegal.   
   >>>   
   >>>> You later retracted that claim, but the   
   >>>> damage to your reputation had already been done.   
   >>>   
   >>> No, Lying Michael. I still believe that gay sex between "children" above   
   >>> the   
   >>> age of consent should be legal, while you continue to lie and   
   >>> misrepresent   
   >>> that claim.   
   >>>   
   >>>> BTW: Who is MFH?  I'm having difficulty placing the initials.  Is it a   
   >>>> typo?   
   >>>   
   >>> MFH = "My Father's House". That's a poem of mine you may have read.   
   >>   
   >> MFH has been bumped up to the top of the newsgroup for focus and   
   >> discussion.   
   >   
   > MFH has been discussed down to the last detail, by George, NancyGene,   
   > and myself in the past.   
   >   
   > Since NancyGene no longer posts here, and since I haven't changed my   
   > opinion in the least, there is no reason for us to discuss it again,   
   > now.   
   >   
   > --   
      
   That's okay, Pendragon, but I think George Dance has some things to say   
   about the poem, since George Dance was the person who mentioned MFH in   
   this thread.   
      
   HTH and HAND.   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)