[continued from previous message]   
      
   But the days are used to represent *different things* in each.   
      
   Yesterdays = Memories vs Days = Increments of Time.   
      
   Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing past the specific   
   words to recognize their metaphorical (or, if you must, symbolic)   
   meanings?   
      
   >>>> The speaker in   
   >>>> NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their   
   >>>> memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more   
   >>>> oppressive with each passing day.   
   >>>   
   >>> Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not   
   >>> normally stack up that way   
   >>   
   >> Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;   
   >> they are stacked up by others.   
   >   
   > That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by   
   > people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've alread   
   > read.   
      
   It is neither stupid, nor quibbling, George. I was demonstrating how one   
   can change the meaning of a sentence by examining it out of context   
   (something which you do in practically every post).  According to your   
   sentence, the newspapers have taken on a life of their own and are   
   capable of movement (piling themselves in stacks).   
      
   If you don't like it, don't do it.   
      
      
   >> But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in   
   >> simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think   
   >> they stack themselves in real life?   
   >   
   > If in a poem you're trying to use a simile to show how the says "pile   
   > up" or stack up, you should try to use a vehicle that does normally   
   > "pile up" (like Creeley's "unread newspapers", not one that does not   
   > normally "stack up" (like   
   > "read newspapers"). That should be clear enough to anyone who isn't just   
   > trying to play the peabrain.   
      
   See my comments below.  While "unread newspapers" get stacked up because   
   the subscriber hasn't had time to read them, "read newspapers" get   
   stacked up when the subscriber is suffering from clinical depression --   
   which is what NancyGene's poem is about.   
      
      
   >>>- once they're read, they're thrown away.   
   >>   
   >> Under normal circumstances, yes.   
   >   
   > So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense.   
   >   
   >> However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often   
   >> do not bother taking out their trash.  As previously noted, my Great   
   >> Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and   
   >> magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and   
   >> covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.   
   >   
   > Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's   
   > speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's   
   > what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.   
      
   I can't remember if I picked that up from the first line, or further   
   into the poem.  I certainly recognized it as the theme *during* my   
   initial reading.   
      
      
   >>> If   
   >>> NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something   
   >>> else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not   
   >>> thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a   
   >>> hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.   
   >   
   > "Old clothes would be another good vehicle; those stack up in closets,   
   > whether they've been worn or not. That makes four better choices than   
   > NastyGoon's.   
      
      
   Because old clothes don't represent memories.   
      
   A daily newspaper (specifically a daily newspaper that has been *read*)   
   is the perfect metaphor for one's memories, which comprises the events   
   one experiences each day.   
      
      
   >> Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the   
   >> practices of my Great Aunt.   
   >   
   > Are you saying that, because you had a Great Aunt who suffered from   
   > clinical depression and didn't throw away newspapers she'd read, you   
   > were able to grasp from one line that NastyGoon's speaker suffered from   
   > the exact same clinical depression?   
      
   I wouldn't say that it was the "exact same" one.  Depression varies with   
   the individual.  I'm saying that the *symptoms* of clinical depression   
   often involve shutting oneself off from the world, not wanting to leave   
   their house or even getting out of bed, not caring about their   
   appearance, not taking out their trash, etc.   
      
      
   > My only response has to be that most readers don't have a Great Aunt   
   > like that; so they'd simply see it as a bad simile: trying to show how   
   > "yesterdays" stack up by comparing it to something that doesn't normall   
   > "stack up".   
      
   I can't speak for most readers anymore than you can, George.   
      
   I can say that most people have experienced feelings of depression, and   
   can readily understand feeling oppressed or suffocated by their   
   memories.   
      
   Regardless of whether they've known someone suffering from clinical   
   depression, they should be able to understand the metaphoric   
   similarities between one's memories (experienced events of each day) and   
   daily newspapers (a report of events that occurred in one's local   
   community and the world at large on a day by day basis).   
      
      
   >>>> Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of   
   >>>> wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being   
   >>>> weighed down by the past is not.   
   >>>   
   >>> First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted   
   >>> time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make   
   >>> sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.   
   >>   
   >> There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been   
   >> saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his   
   >> supposed poem.   
   >   
   > We're only discussing one line of each poem. I got his symbolism merely   
   > by a reading of one line, and saw it as a good simile. I also got   
   > NastyGoon's simile by the same reading of one line, and on reflection   
   > see it as a bad simile.   
      
   You see what you want to see, George.   
      
   >>> Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you   
   >>> say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense   
   >>> either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),   
   >>> "read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.   
   >   
   >> I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)   
   >> when entering her house through the yellowing stacks.  Old newspapers   
   >> have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of   
   >> suffocation.   
   >   
   > Your Great Aunt's house? Well, assuming that you didn't just make her up   
   > to defend your "colleague's" simile, I'll point out that readers who   
   > didn't have a Great Aunt like yours would have no idea why newspapers   
   > were oppressive. They'd see it as a bad simile which ruins the line,   
   > just as I do.   
      
   And, again, I'm willing to venture that they immediately pick up on the   
   similarity between stacks of *read* newspapers and memories.  One   
   doesn't need to have had a clinically depressed Great Aunt to recognize   
   that.   
      
   --   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)