[continued from previous message]   
      
   >>> do not bother taking out their trash.  As previously noted, my Great   
   >>> Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and   
   >>> magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and   
   >>> covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.   
   >>   
   >> Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's   
   >> speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's   
   >> what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.   
   >   
   > I can't remember if I picked that up from the first line, or further   
   > into the poem.  I certainly recognized it as the theme *during* my   
   > initial reading.   
      
   That's nice, but don't you remember what your mentor PJ Ross used to   
   tell us an "esperienced reader" would do if he found a first line in a   
   poem by a complete unknown that didn't make sense to him? Why expect   
   anyone to do it for NG's poem?   
      
   (Note that I haven't refused to read the rest of the poem. You and your   
   "colleague" have refused to post it.)   
      
   >>>> If   
   >>>> NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something   
   >>>> else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not   
   >>>> thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a   
   >>>> hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.   
   >>   
   >> "Old clothes would be another good vehicle; those stack up in closets,   
   >> whether they've been worn or not. That makes four better choices than   
   >> NastyGoon's.   
   >   
   > Because old clothes don't represent memories.   
      
   All righty, then. I gave you only three better choices.   
      
   > A daily newspaper (specifically a daily newspaper that has been *read*)   
   > is the perfect metaphor for one's memories, which comprises the events   
   > one experiences each day.   
      
   No, "memories" does not comprise "the events   
   > one experiences each day." There are plenty of events that I experience   
   > each day that I don't remember.   
      
   >>> Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the   
   >>> practices of my Great Aunt.   
   >>   
   >> Are you saying that, because you had a Great Aunt who suffered from   
   >> clinical depression and didn't throw away newspapers she'd read, you   
   >> were able to grasp from one line that NastyGoon's speaker suffered from   
   >> the exact same clinical depression?   
   >   
   > I wouldn't say that it was the "exact same" one.  Depression varies with   
   > the individual.  I'm saying that the *symptoms* of clinical depression   
   > often involve shutting oneself off from the world, not wanting to leave   
   > their house or even getting out of bed, not caring about their   
   > appearance, not taking out their trash, etc.   
   >   
   >> My only response has to be that most readers don't have a Great Aunt   
   >> like that; so they'd simply see it as a bad simile: trying to show how   
   >> "yesterdays" stack up by comparing it to something that doesn't normall   
   >> "stack up".   
   >   
   > I can't speak for most readers anymore than you can, George.   
      
   Yet you have no trouble telling others what "readers" think of their   
   poems.   
      
   >   
   > I can say that most people have experienced feelings of depression, and   
   > can readily understand feeling oppressed or suffocated by their   
   > memories.   
   >   
   > Regardless of whether they've known someone suffering from clinical   
   > depression, they should be able to understand the metaphoric   
   > similarities between one's memories (experienced events of each day) and   
   > daily newspapers (a report of events that occurred in one's local   
   > community and the world at large on a day by day basis).   
   >   
   >>>>> Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of   
   >>>>> wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being   
   >>>>> weighed down by the past is not.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted   
   >>>> time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make   
   >>>> sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.   
   >>>   
   >>> There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been   
   >>> saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his   
   >>> supposed poem.   
   >>   
   >> We're only discussing one line of each poem. I got his symbolism merely   
   >> by a reading of one line, and saw it as a good simile. I also got   
   >> NastyGoon's simile by the same reading of one line, and on reflection   
   >> see it as a bad simile.   
   >   
   > You see what you want to see, George.   
      
   Ho, hum.   
      
   >>>> Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you   
   >>>> say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense   
   >>>> either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),   
   >>>> "read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.   
   >>   
   >>> I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)   
   >>> when entering her house through the yellowing stacks.  Old newspapers   
   >>> have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of   
   >>> suffocation.   
   >>   
   >> Your Great Aunt's house? Well, assuming that you didn't just make her up   
   >> to defend your "colleague's" simile, I'll point out that readers who   
   >> didn't have a Great Aunt like yours would have no idea why newspapers   
   >> were oppressive. They'd see it as a bad simile which ruins the line,   
   >> just as I do.   
   >   
   > And, again, I'm willing to venture that they immediately pick up on the   
   > similarity between stacks of *read* newspapers and memories.  One   
   > doesn't need to have had a clinically depressed Great Aunt to recognize   
   > that.   
      
   Well, the only way to tell what other readers will think of NastyGoon's   
   line is if their poem gets any other readers. Good luck to them.   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)