[continued from previous message]   
      
   >>>>>> complete) is to get some first-had evidence; to look at the book I was   
   >>>>>> told it appeared in, and see if the poem is there.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> That seems like a long way to go to prove a point/win an argument --   
   >>>>> especially when the chances of the poem's existence are slim, and those   
   >>>>> of its actually having been plagiarized, virtually nonexistent.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> But as I've noted in the past, you'll do anything to win an argument   
   >>>>> (and still end up losing it).   
   >> Very similar to what Pickles used to do, with elaborate explanations for   
   >> why his lies did not stand up to any scrutiny.   
   >>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Being accused of forgery (even one line) is a far more serious matter   
   >>>> than being accused of plagiarism. That's what I'm most interested in. As   
   >>>> a notorious last-worder, you'll never admit that you lost an "argument"   
   >>>> no matter what, so I'm not interested in that at all.   
   >>>   
   >>> "Last Man Standing" is your Donkey's game, not mine.   
   >>>   
   >>> When I'm wrong, I always admit it.  I have conceded several points to   
   >>> PJR and others in the past.   
   >>>   
   >>> And no.  Forgery is not more serious than plagiarism.   
   >> We would also say that what Mr. Dance's "source" did was literary fraud.   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>> Had you forged the "Days pile up" line, what's the worst that you've   
   >>> done?  You've wasted your, my, and NancyGene's time arguing over a troll   
   >>> post.   
   >> The Regents of the University of California own the copyright for a   
   >> significant portion of Creeley's writings.  They could sue Mr. Dance's   
   >> source for forgery, literary forgery and fraud.   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>> OTOH, a writer who is shown to plagiarize the work of others could end   
   >>> up having their work boycotted.  Who wants to publish a poem if it's   
   >>> going to turn out to have been stolen?  Not only do you look like a fool   
   >>> for not having Googled for it, but you could end up getting sued.   
   >> We recall some writers and reporters losing their publishers and   
   >> newspaper jobs because of plagiarism.  It is a serious charge.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>>>>> Either post the entire poem (or at least the first four lines) here, or   
   >>>>>>> provide a link.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Once I've completed that first-hand examination, I'll give my results.   
   >>>>>> If the poem is there, or not, I'll post to that effect. I certainly   
   >>>>>> won't be posting a copyrighted poem in its entirety; you should know me   
   >>>>>> better than that.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> If you're attempting to show that plagiarism occurred, I'm afraid you'll   
   >>>>> have to.  At very least, you should make a copy available to NancyGene   
   >>>>> or me via email.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> As I said, my interest at this point in dealing with your accusations of   
   >>>> forgery. Buying you two copies of the book has nothing to do with that.   
   >>>> Besides, (1) I don't have either of your addresses anyway, and (2) it's   
   >>>> a print copy which of course I can't "email" to you.   
   >>   
   >> We (and Michael) have already seen pdfs of the books of Robert Creeley.   
   >> We are surprised that George Dance didn't ask us to send him print   
   >> copies of the book so that he could look for the poem.   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>> And as I've said, I had given you the benefit of the doubt until after   
   >>> you had repeatedly refused to reveal where the supposed Creeley poem   
   >>> could be found.   
   >> Mr. Dance has to protect his sources like a newspaper reporter?   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>> Even after you've finally come clean, admitted that you have never read   
   >>> (nor previously heard of) the poem, and that you're waiting on the   
   >>> receipt of a book you purchased before making your big reveal... your   
   >>> refusal to simply tell us where we can find the poem remains suspicious.   
   >> Highly suspicious and needlessly obtuse.   
   >>>   
   >>> However, since you have said that you were at least going to reveal the   
   >>> title of book the poem is in (once you've received your copy and checked   
   >>> for the poem in it), I am once more giving you the benefit of the doubt.   
   >> We think you are being too generous to Mr. Dance, but we have access to   
   >> all of Mr. Creeley's books, so once Mr. Dance makes the big reveal, we   
   >> will be able to check out his claim (if he has one).   
   >   
   > It isn't that I'm generous to a fault or anything.  I just can't imagine   
   > anyone being so astoundingly stupid as to accuse someone of plagiarism   
   > based on a non-existent poem.  I think that George acted under the   
   > belief that the line in question exists.   
      
   You see that George Dance is trying to do a dance around what he   
   actually posted.  Who would be so malicious as to feed George Dance a   
   false quote?   
   >   
   > Of course, this in no way justifies his "completely silly" accusations.   
   > I'm just saying that he's not quite the dunce everyone takes him to be.   
   Is "not quite" like "a bit" or "just a bit?"   
   >   
   >   
   >>>>> The most likely outcome (assuming that such a poem exists) is that there   
   >>>>> is some, superficial similarity between the opening line of each   
   >>>>> (although they are describing very different things).   
   >>   
   >> According to the indices of the books, the first line starting with   
   >> "The" doesn't even match the newspapers line that Mr. Dance and his   
   >> source claim was written by Creeley.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> HarryLiar, we've all seen the opening lines we're discussing. You   
   >>>> claimed they're completely different, while your NastyGoon colleague   
   >>>> claimed that one is changed only a bit from the other. I agree with your   
   >>>> colleague.   
   >>   
   >> We never said "only a bit."  "A bit" is not measurable.  The   
   >> lost-and-found line of the "source" is not what we wrote, and has a   
   >> different meaning.   
   >   
   > Once again, George Dance falls back on his old high school debating team   
   > tactic of slightly modifying a statement in order to change its meaning.   
   "He can't handle the truth!"   
   >   
   >>> Let NancyGene speak for herself, George.  I only see two lines that   
   >>> contain different variations on a common expression (which also appears   
   >>> in poetry by your Donkey and myself).   
   >> Newspapers stack or pile.  However, our poem was inspired by   
   >> decluttering our (large) house.  We came upon saved Christmas and   
   >> birthday cards, newspapers that were saved of "historic" occasions, and   
   >> more which just to look at brought back memories, and many of those   
   >> memories were unhappy.   
   >>   
   >> However, to speak on newspapers:  We subscribe to the print edition of a   
   >> "major metropolitan newspaper" and also the county newspaper, which   
   >> subscriptions cost us about $600 a year for 7-day-a-week home delivery.   
   >> We would not waste the money by not reading them.  Once they are read,   
   >> they are put in a bag for recycling.  We do not wish to revisit stories   
   >> of mass killings or disasters, and to look at the bag does bring up   
   >> those thoughts of human trauma.   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>> What I find praiseworthy in NancyGene's line is not the application of a   
   >>> common expression to piled up newspapers, but the concept of piled up   
   >>> newspapers as a symbol for the oppression of memory.   
   >> And that is true.  How many times does a person want to be reminded of   
   >> bad things that have happened to him?  Memory can be debilitating.   
   >> There are some people who can remember everything in their lives   
   >> (hyperthymesia), but most people are spared that "gift."   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>>> Your Donkey has   
   >>>>> reposted on of his own poems that has seconds piling up on the floor.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> "like newspapers"?   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> Did your Donkey plagiarize Creeley's poem as well?   
   >>>>   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)