[continued from previous message]   
      
   >> See my comments below.  While "unread newspapers" get stacked up because   
   >> the subscriber hasn't had time to read them, "read newspapers" get   
   >> stacked up when the subscriber is suffering from clinical depression --   
   >> which is what NancyGene's poem is about.   
   >   
   >>>>>- once they're read, they're thrown away.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Under normal circumstances, yes.   
   >>>   
   >>> So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense.   
   >>>   
   >>>> However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often   
   >>>> do not bother taking out their trash.  As previously noted, my Great   
   >>>> Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and   
   >>>> magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and   
   >>>> covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.   
   >>>   
   >>> Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's   
   >>> speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's   
   >>> what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.   
   >>   
   >> I can't remember if I picked that up from the first line, or further   
   >> into the poem.  I certainly recognized it as the theme *during* my   
   >> initial reading.   
   >   
   > That's nice, but don't you remember what your mentor PJ Ross used to   
   > tell us an "esperienced reader" would do if he found a first line in a   
   > poem by a complete unknown that didn't make sense to him? Why expect   
   > anyone to do it for NG's poem?   
   >   
   > (Note that I haven't refused to read the rest of the poem. You and your   
   > "colleague" have refused to post it.)   
   >   
   >>>>> If   
   >>>>> NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something   
   >>>>> else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not   
   >>>>> thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a   
   >>>>> hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.   
   >>>   
   >>> "Old clothes would be another good vehicle; those stack up in closets,   
   >>> whether they've been worn or not. That makes four better choices than   
   >>> NastyGoon's.   
   >>   
   >> Because old clothes don't represent memories.   
   >   
   > All righty, then. I gave you only three better choices.   
   >   
   >> A daily newspaper (specifically a daily newspaper that has been *read*)   
   >> is the perfect metaphor for one's memories, which comprises the events   
   >> one experiences each day.   
   >   
   > No, "memories" does not comprise "the events   
   >> one experiences each day." There are plenty of events that I experience   
   >> each day that I don't remember.   
   >   
   >>>> Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the   
   >>>> practices of my Great Aunt.   
   >>>   
   >>> Are you saying that, because you had a Great Aunt who suffered from   
   >>> clinical depression and didn't throw away newspapers she'd read, you   
   >>> were able to grasp from one line that NastyGoon's speaker suffered from   
   >>> the exact same clinical depression?   
   >>   
   >> I wouldn't say that it was the "exact same" one.  Depression varies with   
   >> the individual.  I'm saying that the *symptoms* of clinical depression   
   >> often involve shutting oneself off from the world, not wanting to leave   
   >> their house or even getting out of bed, not caring about their   
   >> appearance, not taking out their trash, etc.   
   >>   
   >>> My only response has to be that most readers don't have a Great Aunt   
   >>> like that; so they'd simply see it as a bad simile: trying to show how   
   >>> "yesterdays" stack up by comparing it to something that doesn't normall   
   >>> "stack up".   
   >>   
   >> I can't speak for most readers anymore than you can, George.   
   >   
   > Yet you have no trouble telling others what "readers" think of their   
   > poems.   
   >   
   >>   
   >> I can say that most people have experienced feelings of depression, and   
   >> can readily understand feeling oppressed or suffocated by their   
   >> memories.   
   >>   
   >> Regardless of whether they've known someone suffering from clinical   
   >> depression, they should be able to understand the metaphoric   
   >> similarities between one's memories (experienced events of each day) and   
   >> daily newspapers (a report of events that occurred in one's local   
   >> community and the world at large on a day by day basis).   
   >>   
   >>>>>> Both similies are good, by NancyGene's is more original: the idea of   
   >>>>>> wasted time piling up on one is a common theme of poetry, whereas being   
   >>>>>> weighed down by the past is not.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> First, I didn't say Creeley was using "The days" to stand for wasted   
   >>>>> time. Saying "Wasted time piles up like unread newspapers" wouldn't make   
   >>>>> sense because the tenor (wasted time) does not pile up.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> There is no point in your discussing what Creeley might have been   
   >>>> saying, because no one (Will, NancyGene, and I) can find a copy of his   
   >>>> supposed poem.   
   >>>   
   >>> We're only discussing one line of each poem. I got his symbolism merely   
   >>> by a reading of one line, and saw it as a good simile. I also got   
   >>> NastyGoon's simile by the same reading of one line, and on reflection   
   >>> see it as a bad simile.   
   >>   
   >> You see what you want to see, George.   
   >   
   > Ho, hum.   
      
   That's pretty funny coming from Michael Pendragon aka Harry Lime, who   
   regularly makes things up as he goes along and of course then posts them   
   in with his usual lies and misrepresentations.   
      
   >>>>> Second, if one wanted to say that their memories were oppressive (as you   
   >>>>> say NG is trying to express with their simile) doesn't make sense   
   >>>>> either, because (in addition to not normally stacking up in piles),   
   >>>>> "read newspapers" aren't oppressive either.   
   >>>   
   >>>> I sure as hell felt oppressive feelings (claustrophobia, suffocation)   
   >>>> when entering her house through the yellowing stacks.  Old newspapers   
   >>>> have a distinctive odor as well, which lends to the feelings of   
   >>>> suffocation.   
   >>>   
   >>> Your Great Aunt's house? Well, assuming that you didn't just make her up   
   >>> to defend your "colleague's" simile, I'll point out that readers who   
   >>> didn't have a Great Aunt like yours would have no idea why newspapers   
   >>> were oppressive. They'd see it as a bad simile which ruins the line,   
   >>> just as I do.   
   >>   
   >> And, again, I'm willing to venture that they immediately pick up on the   
   >> similarity between stacks of *read* newspapers and memories.  One   
   >> doesn't need to have had a clinically depressed Great Aunt to recognize   
   >> that.   
   >   
   > Well, the only way to tell what other readers will think of NastyGoon's   
   > line is if their poem gets any other readers. Good luck to them.   
      
   Is the poem even available for reading and commenting on Usenet?   
      
   I haven't seen it anywhere here that I know of.   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)