XPost: alt.fan.heinlein   
   From: psperson@old.netcom.invalid   
      
   On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 17:58:32 -0000 (UTC), "Don"  wrote:   
      
   >Robert Woodward wrote:   
   >> Paul S Person wrote:   
   >>> Don wrote:   
   >>> >Paul S Person wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>    
   >>>   
   >>> >Idiocy is in the eye of the beholder.   
   >>>   
   >>> Whatever.   
   >>>   
   >>>    
   >>>   
   >>> >Are ALL YOU ZOMBIES and THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF the sole SF self-sex   
   >>> >stories tangled in time travel?   
   >>> >   
   >>> >Precedence does not imply provenance.   
   >>> >   
   >>> >Self-sex science fiction was first formulated by RAH. He predictably   
   >>> >kept his narrative basic and bare bones by using only four time loop   
   >>> >characters: Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender.   
   >>> >    Gerrold embellishes by expanding his ensemble of time loop   
   >>> >characters. Calculating the character count could prove difficult in   
   >>> >the case of THE MAN WHO FOLDED HIMSELF.   
   >>>   
   >>> I believe the precise answer is -- infinite. Possibly uncountable.   
   >>>   
   >>> As to "--All You Zombies--", this is a short story, which explains its   
   >>> shortness compared to /The Man Who Folded Himself/, which is a novel.   
   >>>   
   >>> It was made into the film /Predestination/, which feels like a good   
   >>> Heinlein story done exactly (I've never read the story so cannot say   
   >>> how close they are). But, of course, adapting a short story to a film   
   >>> is likely to follow the original better (unless, of course, the   
   >>> filmmakers decide to go off in their own direction instead of doing   
   >>> something so boring as actually telling the same story) than a novel   
   >>> short story.   
   >>>   
   >>> As to the number of characters, I would say it has essentially /one/.   
   >>> Although other characters exist (most prominently the Agency guy).   
   >>> That, after all, is the point of the story. Or at least of the film.   
   >>   
   >> Agency guy? IIRC, the story, other than scene extras, had only 1   
   >> character (who, because of time travel, shows up twice in many scenes,   
   >> perhaps even thrice once or twice). So is this Agency guy someone the   
   >> script writer added or is it the same character again?   
   >   
   >Good question. Allow me to clear up character count confusion.   
   >   
   >My "time loop character" is separate and distinct from the narrative's   
   >one character. Each independent idiosyncratic identity instantiation    
   >(eg Jane, the baby, the unmarried mother, and the bartender) of the one   
   >narrative character counts as one "time loop character."    
      
   Since I haven't read the story and since Ethan Hawke's character is   
   named "The Bartender" per IMDb, I can only point out that he is /not/   
   a bartender in several scenes, but an agent. Not to mention his final   
   incarnation, as it were.   
      
   Interestingly, Sarah Snook's is name "The Unmarried Mother". "Jane"   
   does not appear, although the infant does (in time-honored tradition,   
   apparently played by twin infants).    
      
   But it you really want "time loop characters", in the restricted sense   
   of being the protagonist, you would need:   
   baby Jane   
   child Jane (possibly several)   
   young adult Jane   
   James   
   unmarried mother Jane   
   agent who gets injured   
   agent who recovers   
   bartender/agent   
   kidnapper agent/retiring agent   
   and a mystery guest at the end   
      
   If you want to nominate a few more, feel free.   
      
   Try and avoid the spoiler.   
   --    
   "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,   
   Who evil spoke of everyone but God,   
   Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)