From: psperson@old.netcom.invalid   
      
   On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 21:41:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler   
    wrote:   
      
   >On 1/18/2026 1:26 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:   
   >> On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 09:58:44 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:   
   >>    
   >>> Did I not say they are human and make lots of mistakes expecially   
   >>> when they feel the organization is being challenged?   
   >>    
   >> But they claimed then, and claim now, to be following the dictates of   
   >> a deity who cannot make mistakes.   
   >   
   >The usual hand-wavium response to that is "we simple humans don't    
   >understand God's plan".  In other words, its all our fault, never God's.   
      
   Which is almost correct.    
      
   What we don't understand is that God works through secondary causes,   
   and secondary causes can fail. So what God wants and what God gets can   
   be two different things.   
      
   Aquinas has an argument showing this, arguing first that God has an   
   intended gender for each baby and that, when twins appear, God wanted   
   them to have the same gender.   
      
   Which means that the existence of boy-girl pairs shows the what God   
   wants and what God gets can be two different things.   
      
   Sadly, his proof depends on astrology (God twiddles with the positions   
   of the stars to select gender). This was so doubtful in his day that   
   he apologizes for it, pointing out that there is one instance where a   
   heavenly body clearly affects the mundane world (he is, of course,   
   talking about tides and the Moon).   
      
   But the principle apparently goes back at least to Augustine.   
      
   As to being "our fault" -- the entire point of Gen 3 (the Fall) is   
   that it is, indeed, /all/ our fault. "For as by one man came death, so   
   also by one Man came the Resurrection fromt the dead" (or something   
   like that; I admit that I am quoting from Handel's /Messiah/ and doing   
   it from memory -- but original in in, IIRC, Romans).   
   --    
   "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,   
   Who evil spoke of everyone but God,   
   Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)