XPost: rec.arts.sf.written, rec.arts.books   
   From: lcraver@home.ca   
      
   On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 10:45:52 -0400, "J. Clarke"    
   wrote:   
      
   >So what are you proposing, to sterilize your entire aboriginal   
   >population on general principle?   
      
   Never said that - I >did< say that a mom who produces a SECOND FES kid   
   really shouldn't have further kids. Let's face it - lots of people   
   have kids who really shouldn't but once a pregnancy occurs I do think   
   one has a duty (assuming one intends to go to term) to do it in as   
   healthy a manner as possible.   
      
   >> Does society have a duty to endlessly   
   >> financially support such people?   
   >   
   >It's called "charity".   
      
   I have less problem with that than you think - it's the moms I have   
   trouble with.   
      
   >> I think these are questions that society NEEDS to have an open debate   
   >> on - I know plenty of women who drank huge amounts of orange juice   
   >> while pregnant   
   >   
   >Orange juice?  Is there some problem with vitamin C and pregnancy of   
   >which I am unaware?   
      
   Absolutely not - lots of vitamin C is beneficial when pregnant and my   
   wife by her own choice drank a minimum of 2 or 3 glasses a day when   
   pregnant. She also became quite a "Food Nazi" on nutritional matters   
   during her pregnancies and all 3 of ours were extremely healthy   
   children.   
      
   (Every family has genetic stuff their kids need to know about -   
   diabetes runs in both my family and my wife's  meaning the kids are   
   more prone than most to get it so we've made sure they know the score.   
   None of them are particularly athletic but all are reasonably fit)   
      
   >> and even know one whose husband brought a bottle of   
   >> champagne and glasses to the delivery room!   
   >   
   >And having some champagne to celebrate the birth is a problem because?   
      
   Obviously it isn't - but it was the first booze of any sort the new   
   mom had had since getting word she was pregnant. That was my point and   
   I apologize for being unclear.   
      
   >> But MOST pregnant women do   
   >> want the best for their kids and do take personal measures to make   
   >> sure their diet during pregnancy is sound and provides the right   
   >> nutrients for their child.   
   >>   
   >> Sorry - but I do reject your use of the word "genocide" as it's   
   >> unnecessarily inflamatory - yes this is a probably more of the   
   >> disadvantaged than society generally but the solution is better   
   >> prenatal care not punishment. Still there are cases where positive   
   >> action just plain doesn't work so the debate needs to take place on   
   >> what's an appropriate societal response in these cases.   
   >   
   >Forced sterilization should not be allowed except as punishment for a   
   >crime after due process.  I'm fine with voluntary sterilization being a   
   >condition of recieving certain kinds of government assistance--nobody is   
   >forced at gunpoint to take Welfare.   
      
   That's reasonable. Bottom line is I feel there is no reasonable   
   grounds for disputing that Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is an _entirely_   
   preventable condition.   
      
   What can be reasonably discussed with different reasonable people   
   holding different views is what if anything is an appropriate societal   
   response.   
      
   >> I personally think our current policy of doing nothing is a complete   
   >> abdication of responsibility as a civilized society.   
   >   
   >And there in is more of your problem.  Government does not have a duty   
   >to srolve all social ills.  The law is a blunt implement and should be   
   >the last resort, after all else has failed.  However it is becoming the   
   >first resort with the result that we fill up the courts with a bunch of   
   >picayune bullshit and the jails with people who harmed nobody.   
      
   In our society it is unconscionable that pregnant women don't get   
   decent pre-natal care. It's not like we can't afford to. Some people   
   make bad choices due to ignorance, others due to pure bull headedness.   
   To say we can't as a society solve all social ills logically means we   
   should dismantle all public health programs. I don't think you really   
   mean that.   
      
   As for the courts we basically agree - though my whole point in the   
   discussion of FES is that it's a life sentence for the victim who gets   
   it through no fault of their own and there is no known cure for it -   
   furthermore, such people DO tend to engage in violence more and that   
   affects society as a whole and yes society DOES have a right and a   
   duty to prevent violence wherever possible.   
      
   The point is on such cases we need to be proactive since the court   
   system is the worst possible place to deal with what is basically an   
   easily preventable public health problem.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)