XPost: uk.tech.broadcast, uk.tech.digital-tv, uk.rec.audio   
   XPost: sci.electronics.repair   
   From: mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID   
      
   "David Looser"  wrote in message   
   news:9mitsgFpbeU1@mid.individual.net...   
   : "Jerry"  wrote in message   
   : news:je1bne$8id$3@dont-email.me...   
   : >   
   : > "David Looser"  wrote in message   
   : > news:9mifvpFemsU1@mid.individual.net...   
   : >   
   : >    
   : > : I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The   
   10A   
   : > plug has 3   
   : > : thin pins with no support for the plug other than that   
   provided   
   : > by the pins,   
   : > : so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the   
   : > weight of the   
   : > : flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)   
   : > installation I saw   
   : > : large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or   
   : > circuit breaker   
   : > : of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.   
   : > :   
   : >   
   : > But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK   
   bridging   
   : > out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to   
   string a   
   : > large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that   
   has   
   : > increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK   
   : > (especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and   
   kitchens).   
   :   
   : Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket   
   for the Italian   
   : plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly   
   good.   
      
   On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to   
   insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially for   
   the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of the   
   terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say) there is   
   less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two   
   other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the lead   
   is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in either   
   plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution occur   
   it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance lead   
   out of the socket from a distance.   
      
   Also the   
   : Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a   
   matter of   
   : luck.   
      
   Not relevant on anything that doesn't have a single pole switch,   
   and surely a BS1363 plug with a figure 8 style lead is as bad,   
   more so because the user might be unaware of the risk of pole   
   reversibility? Even then, nothing to stop someone reversing the   
   polarity in the plug due to transposing the +/- cables. Or, and   
   quite possible since the EU wide harmonisation of wiring colours,   
   transposing the conductors at the socket.   
      
   Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new   
   : BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.   
      
   Funny that, I have such an older un-sleeved plug sitting on my   
   desk ATM, as I said elsewhere, there must be many millions of   
   such plugs still in existence and otherwise serviceable... It's   
   only been comparatively recently that people have been discarding   
   appliances still with the plug attached, the most common reason   
   being that it has a moulded on plug, but then these dire   
   contraptions have caused their own safety problems to those who   
   have been lulled into this fails sense of electrical safety.   
      
   :   
   : I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad   
   thing just   
   : because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat   
   it. The   
   : overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than   
   13A, I don't   
   : accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is   
   somehow   
   : cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.   
      
   If an idiot can defeat the safety device that has been place   
   there so that idiots are safer then the safety measure has by   
   definition failed! But heck, if you're right then, judging by the   
   majority of countries (even just within the EU), the UK has been   
   totally OTT with its own electrical safety. You have made my   
   point for me!...   
      
   :   
   : As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results   
   in an   
   : increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired   
   with 3A cable   
   : in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your   
   notion that   
   : safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will   
   ignore them.   
      
   Actually I had not given Part P much thought before it was   
   imminent and could see the intent behind it, only then, whilst in   
   conversation with a couple of registered electricians (thus would   
   get Part P registration) that Part P came up and *they* expressed   
   doubts over the regs effects and the likely hood of the scenario   
   was put to me - OK so 3A flex might be unlikely but still   
   possible. Also IIRC the same sorts of doubts,about Part P's   
   actual effect on hazardous area safety, were expressed on the   
   uk.d-i-y group.   
      
   : >   
   : > Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian   
   : > electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as   
   : > dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference   
   for   
   : > the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation   
   : > practises?   
   :   
   : I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety,   
   which is true.   
   : I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an   
   Italian   
   : installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.   
      
   Well yes, to the point of being bleedingly obvious, and a UK   
   installation would fail a Italian or USA electrical safety check,   
   different strokes for different folks and all that!   
      
   : >   
   : > Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense)   
   make   
   : > something unsafe.   
   :   
   : A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that   
   BS1363 plugs   
   : are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the   
   fuse!   
      
   I'm saying *anything* can and will be unsafe if miss used,   
   attempting to make something 'idiot proof' (which the vast   
   majority of the UK's domestic electrical regulation, such as   
   BS1363, attempts to do), does is induce complacency amongst those   
   most at risk.   
      
   :   
   : > As long as the rating of the socket or   
   : > conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I   
   note   
   : > that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of   
   : > conductor used in these Italian instillations...   
   : > --   
   :   
   : I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what   
   it was.   
      
   So it could have actually been as great or greater than the   
   underlaying instalation, thus your pouint was what, exactly?   
      
    But I   
   : do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected   
   to those   
   : plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm.  Not adequate, I think, to   
   handle up to   
   : 25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a   
   flex of that   
   : cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or   
   less. OK, I   
   : accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)