From: detritus@ix.netcom.com   
      
   Patrick Turner wrote:   
      
   > Today I tested the whole Fender Deluxe with its vibrato channel which now   
   has a CF buffer driving standard Fender tone stack but with a linear 10k0 pot   
   for mid adjust. The CF buffer increases the gain by an average of +3dB.   
   >   
   > The 1M volume pot following tone stack has 5pF across top of pot and wiper.   
   But standard Deluxe schematic shows a fixed 47pF, so at some volume setting   
   there is a maximum increase of HF because of the combined effect of following   
   12AX7 Miller input C    
   and the C shunting part of the volume control resistance. Because this   
   particular amp has 5pF, it is perhaps a mod, the HF boost due to 5pF is   
   negligible. I found 47pF at volume pot would boost 5kHz by +3dB,( less at   
   lower F and not much above 7kHz.) But    
   with 47pF, the extra HF varies considerably with volume level because there is   
   an effective CRC filter from tone stack with C drive with a much variable R   
   element of volume pot then Miller C. Some amps have the volume control fitted   
   with a pull switch    
   for some extra HF boost, aka presence. Adding another pot and C to vary   
   presence could be interesting, easier than replacing existing pot. But just   
   remember the speaker may not reproduce much above 3kHz.   
   > There is a danger that with treble turned fully up, and with presence due   
   additional C in path, there can be unwanted HF oscillation via stray C and the   
   high gain of so many 12AX7.Maybe using 47k in series with 47pF across volume   
   pot might avoid such    
   problems   
   >   
   > With all controls at 5, mid rotation, the response is not flat, but with   
   > 50Hz = 0dB,   
   > 100Hz = +1.5dB,   
   > 220Hz = 0dB,   
   > 500Hz = - 1.5dB,   
   > 1kHz = 0dB,   
   > 2kHz = +2dB,   
   > 3kHz = +5dB,   
   > 5kHz = +8dB.   
   > 10kHz = +10dB.   
   > This doesn't matter when considering the very variable levels with musical   
   signals from a guitar pick up.   
   >   
   > The knob settings for best 1kHz square wave and flattest sine wave response   
   possible with vibrato channel, and **at the amp output** with 8r0 dummy R load   
   is B3, M5, T2, and Volume at 6.   
   >   
   > 50Hz can be varied +11dB, -8dB.   
   > 100Hz can be varied +8dB, - 5dB.   
   > least level adjustment occurs at 320Hz.   
   > 2kHz can be varied +14dB, - 5dB   
   > 5kHz can be varied +18dB, -2dB.   
   >   
   > Maximum mid control is possible with both B and T set at 10.   
   > The mid dip thus created occurs about 320Hz with M at 5.   
   > Dip can be varied +3dB and - 7.5dB at 320Hz, and less than +/- 2dB at 140Hz   
   and 600Hz.   
   > The Q of the maximum dip at M1 = 2.3, higher than 1.0, and slopes of both   
   dip sides is greater than 6dB/octave, and just how well that interacts with   
   perceived sound is anyone's guess. Nobody seems to object to the mid dip.   
   > But to be able to tune the F of the dip and to adjust the Q would at least   
   require an extra triode and 2 pots and some R and C - IMHO.   
   >   
   > All F response measurements done without any stage of the amp clipping.   
   >   
   > There is no master volume control between preamp 12AX7 just ahead of power   
   amp. Therefore the preamp tubes ahead of the power amp cannot be easily   
   overloaded without power amp clipping first with just 2.5Vrms being made by   
   preceding preamp tubes. To    
   make the preamp tubes clip would need them to produce about 50Vrms.   
   >   
   > It would be possible to overload the input tube which drives the tone stack   
   by using an external preamp between guitar and amp input, then set volume at   
   low, so cleanly amplify an already distorted signal, as required by some for   
   venues where low    
   volume is wanted. But other mods are possible to enable devices to work to   
   generate say 7% even numbered H without clipping to thus possibly warm the   
   sound but I won't say just how now because its far too complicated to explain   
   here and now.   
   >   
   > Probably, some guitarists would find that a good starting point is setting   
   both B and T to 2.5,   
   > M to 5, and then just boost bass and treble if either of both sound low, and   
   then adjust mid for best sound.   
   >   
   > The Deluxe has 2 x 6V6 driven by a 12AT7 in LTP mode. B+ = 400Vdc with fixed   
   grid bias.   
   >   
   > OPT has ZR = 6,400r : 8r0.   
   > Maximum Po = 21Watts at clipping onset for 13Vrms to 8r0.   
   > Power amp needs 2.5Vrms input at 12AT7 grid pin 2.   
   >   
   > The amount of GNFB = approximately 2dB with 8r0 load.   
   > The NFB network has 820r : 47r so GNFB voltage at 12AT7 grid pin 7 = 0.7Vrms,   
   > and shunting the 47r to remove all GNFB gives Vo increase = +2dB.   
   > I calculated the amp output resistance = 18r, so damping factor with 8r0 <   
   0.5 = poor.   
   > But low DF suits such amps where the sound can be allowed to be higher from   
   speaker driver which has peaked Z at bass and around Fs. It also has   
   increasing Z and sensitivity between 300Hz and 2kHz. So the speaker helps to   
   act like a tone control with    
   low bass boost and highish treble boost.   
   >   
   > I expect that my customer's complaint about the sound not being as good   
   > as his other old 1965 Fender combo is because the re-issue modern speaker   
   > driver has different ( worse ) sounding characteristics compared to those   
   made 50 years ago.   
   >   
   > Having a control to reduce NFB to virtually zero does almost nothing to the   
   > sound or to the measured performance because such a small amount of GNFB   
   > is involved. Much is written about the sound of NFB in guitar amps, but   
   > in the case of Deluxe there is SFA to actually write about.   
   >   
   > There is a vast amount typed about guitar amps and by ppl who never ever   
   measure anything or make a graph of responses et all and you may all assume   
   that 90% of what is typed about guitar amps has a very horse shit %.   
   >   
   > And nothing the amp can do will make up for the absence of talent in the   
   guitarist.   
   >   
   > Patrick Turner.   
      
   ...   
      
   It's a damn good thing that Leo Fender was just a   
   dumb-ass TV repairman.  Otherwise, his amps   
   would've sounded like shit, having been designed   
   by some clueless hi-fi/audiophool wanker like you.   
   It's obvious you have no idea how these amps are   
   actually used by performers.     
      
   You really have no idea why your customer's modern   
   knock-off sounds like shit compared to his '65, do   
   ya.  And it's obvious that you're gonna do a whole   
   shitload of turd-polishing before you find out it'll   
   never shine the way he wants it to.  So the question   
   comes down to: WTF did Leo know 50 years ago   
   that the clueless fucks at FMI have forgotten today?   
      
   I shall enjoy watching you hot-shots stepping on your   
   cranks in your fruitless quest for real tone.  TTFN...   
      
   Lord Valve   
   "Muso"   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)