From: thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com   
      
   On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 12:04:17 PM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > On 2014-12-09 16:18:27 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher   
   said:   
   >   
   > > On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 3:25:06 AM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >> On 2014-12-09 08:20:40 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher   
   said:   
   > >>   
   > >>> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 12:01:11 AM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >>>> On 2014-12-09 02:11:20 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble   
   Philosopher said:   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>> On Monday, December 8, 2014 7:22:17 PM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >>>>>> On 2014-12-08 20:59:42 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble   
   Philosopher said:   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>> On Monday, December 8, 2014 10:01:28 AM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >>>>>>>> On 2014-12-08 08:46:35 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble   
   Philosopher said:   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 7, 2014 2:56:05 PM UTC-5, Ashton Crusher wrote:   
   > >>>>>>>>>> In every country in the world, the first thing people want as they   
   > >>>>>>>>>> come up out of the mud is personal transportation.   Even in   
   China,   
   > >>>>>>>>>> with cities far bigger then most, and with plenty of public   
   > >>>>>>>>>> transportation of one sort or another, the people still hunger for   
   > >>>>>>>>>> personal transportation.   
   > >>>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>> Right, and because of it they are choking in pollution and the   
   world is   
   > >>>>>>>>> looking into the abyss of irreversible climate change.   
   > >>>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>> And they are sitting in endless traffic jams as well, so they are   
   not   
   > >>>>>>>>> getting fast anywhere.   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>> And if they were actually "not getting fast anywhere [sic]"...   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>> ...they wouldn't be doing it.   
   > >>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>> Think of the word trolley. Have they ever been fast?   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>> How is that relevant?   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>> Fact: you're trying to say that driving is futile because there are   
   > >>>>>> traffic jams.   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>> Clearly, the people with the most experience of the situation   
   disagree...   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>> ...because they are CHOOSING to use their cars.   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>> Do they have a choice?   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>> Yes.   
   > >>>   
   > >>> A choice of one? You could give me two at least, right?   
   > >>   
   > >> They have other choices. You have already mentioned some.   
   > >>   
   > >>>   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>> Right now, as things stand today, most people who you claim are "stuck"   
   > >>>> in traffic jams do have a choice.   
   > >>>   
   > >>> What do you mean I want to take it away? I want a pluralistic society.   
   > >>> "Your commitment to the ideology is exemplary, comrade."   
   > >>   
   > >> You clearly want to take away driving a personal vehicle as a choice.   
   > >>   
   > >> If you don't, this whole conversation is moot.   
   > >   
   > > Yes, there are other options if you are black and poor. Or if you are   
   > > willing to gamble your life on a bicycle.   
   > >   
   > > Riding a bike itself is terrible, so it's better to die.   
   >   
   > So you're blaming the car for all the ills of your society, aren't you?   
   >   
   > Come visit Vancouver or better still, Toronto. Both have good transit   
   > (Toronto, EXCELLENT) that is efficient and safe.   
   >   
   > Yet people still CHOOSE cars much of the time.   
      
   People don't make moral choices everyday.   
      
   However, it would be interesting to ask them who's to blame for climate change   
   and pollution. Then ask them this question directly:   
      
   "Would you avoid the car in certain situations where walking, bicycling,   
   public transportation are an option?"   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)