From: roamingfreeman@gmail.com   
      
   On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 4:00:42 PM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > On 2014-12-09 20:53:10 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher   
   said:   
   >   
   > > On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 12:04:17 PM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >> On 2014-12-09 16:18:27 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher   
   said:   
   > >>   
   > >>> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 3:25:06 AM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >>>> On 2014-12-09 08:20:40 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble   
   Philosopher said:   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 12:01:11 AM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >>>>>> On 2014-12-09 02:11:20 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble   
   Philosopher said:   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>> On Monday, December 8, 2014 7:22:17 PM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >>>>>>>> On 2014-12-08 20:59:42 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble   
   Philosopher said:   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>> On Monday, December 8, 2014 10:01:28 AM UTC-5, Alan Baker wrote:   
   > >>>>>>>>>> On 2014-12-08 08:46:35 +0000, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble   
   Philosopher said:   
   > >>>>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 7, 2014 2:56:05 PM UTC-5, Ashton Crusher   
   wrote:   
   > >>>>>>>>>>>> In every country in the world, the first thing people want as   
   they   
   > >>>>>>>>>>>> come up out of the mud is personal transportation.   Even in   
   China,   
   > >>>>>>>>>>>> with cities far bigger then most, and with plenty of public   
   > >>>>>>>>>>>> transportation of one sort or another, the people still hunger   
   for   
   > >>>>>>>>>>>> personal transportation.   
   > >>>>>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>>>> Right, and because of it they are choking in pollution and the   
   world is   
   > >>>>>>>>>>> looking into the abyss of irreversible climate change.   
   > >>>>>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>>>> And they are sitting in endless traffic jams as well, so they   
   are not   
   > >>>>>>>>>>> getting fast anywhere.   
   > >>>>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>>> And if they were actually "not getting fast anywhere [sic]"...   
   > >>>>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>>> ...they wouldn't be doing it.   
   > >>>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>> Think of the word trolley. Have they ever been fast?   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>> How is that relevant?   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>> Fact: you're trying to say that driving is futile because there are   
   > >>>>>>>> traffic jams.   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>> Clearly, the people with the most experience of the situation   
   disagree...   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>> ...because they are CHOOSING to use their cars.   
   > >>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>> Do they have a choice?   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>> Yes.   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>> A choice of one? You could give me two at least, right?   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>> They have other choices. You have already mentioned some.   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>> Right now, as things stand today, most people who you claim are   
   "stuck"   
   > >>>>>> in traffic jams do have a choice.   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>> What do you mean I want to take it away? I want a pluralistic society.   
   > >>>>> "Your commitment to the ideology is exemplary, comrade."   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>> You clearly want to take away driving a personal vehicle as a choice.   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>> If you don't, this whole conversation is moot.   
   > >>>   
   > >>> Yes, there are other options if you are black and poor. Or if you are   
   > >>> willing to gamble your life on a bicycle.   
   > >>>   
   > >>> Riding a bike itself is terrible, so it's better to die.   
   > >>   
   > >> So you're blaming the car for all the ills of your society, aren't you?   
   > >>   
   > >> Come visit Vancouver or better still, Toronto. Both have good transit   
   > >> (Toronto, EXCELLENT) that is efficient and safe.   
   > >>   
   > >> Yet people still CHOOSE cars much of the time.   
   > >   
   > > People don't make moral choices everyday.   
   >   
   > So you want to claim that you're not advocating for the elimination of   
   > the private car...   
   >   
   > ...and you also want to claim that driving one is an "[im]moral choice"?   
      
   I don't want you to quit the car, just reduce it to the bare minimum. Think of   
   it as a heavy smoker going down to a couple of cigarettes a day.   
      
   Hey, I'm a driver too!   
   >   
   > >   
   > > However, it would be interesting to ask them who's to blame for climate   
   > > change and pollution. Then ask them this question directly:   
   > >   
   > > "Would you avoid the car in certain situations where walking,   
   > > bicycling, public transportation are an option?"   
   >   
   > Will you tell them that as far as "climate change" goes, there hasn't   
   > been any warming for the last 14 years?   
      
   Oh I see. Not only you are driving everywhere but you want to escape   
   responsibility.   
      
   For your information: This is the hottest year on record worldwide. Now go   
   ahead and pollute.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)