Forums before death by AOL, social media and spammers... "We can't have nice things"
|    sci.math.symbolic    |    Symbolic algebra discussion    |    10,432 messages    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
|    Message 9,777 of 10,432    |
|    clicliclic@freenet.de to Albert Rich    |
|    Re: More teething help    |
|    24 Jan 18 07:31:30    |
      Albert Rich schrieb:       >       > On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 4:40:12 AM UTC-10, anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl       wrote:       > >       > > I do not see Albert's message, only this reply so here I am       > > answering to Albert.       > >       > > AFAICS x/((x^3+9)*sqrt(x^3-1)) has no elementary antiderivative.       > > I am surprised that you go that way. Examples that Martin gave       > > are essentially diofantine phenomana depending on arithmetic       > > of elliptic curves. ATM Rubi contains rules for handful       > > of curves. But there are infinitely many essentially different       > > elliptic curves and tables giving "simple" ones contain       > > thousands of entries (google Cremona). Each such curve leads       > > to its own family of pseudoelliptics. You may be able to       > > find some patterns, but apparently number theorists believe       > > that core behaviour is essentially random. So this task       > > is like table of prime numbers, only entries have much       > > more complicated nature.       > >       >       > Sorry, I made a typo. I meant to type x/((x^3+8)*sqrt(x^3-1)), the       > integrand of Martin's second pseudo-elliptic integral example.       >       > As far as the density of pseudo-elliptic integrals, Martin is better       > equipped to address that question than I. However, I would bet that       > only a finite number of rules are required to find elementary       > antiderivatives for pseudo-elliptic integrands of the form       >       > x^m * (a+b*x^3)^n * (c+d*x^3)^(p/2)       >       > where m, n and p are integers.       >       > Note that rather than finding optimal antiderivatives for all       > possible expressions, the more modest goal of Rubi is to find such       > antiderivatives for all elements of well-defined classes, like the       > form given above.       >              Thanks to the (still unpublished?) Masser-Zanier counterexample Waldek       informed us about, we know that there are infinitely many (though       increasingly complicated algebraic) u^2 for which               INT(x/((x^2 - u^2)*SQRT(x^3 - x)), x)              has a solution (also of increasing complexity) in terms of elementary       functions. Consequently, via the usual Moebius transformation of the       integration variable, there are also infinitely many v = (u^2 - 1)/       (u^2 + 1) for which               INT((y^2 - 1)/((y^2 + 2*v*y + 1)*SQRT(y^4 - 1)), y)              has such an elementary solution. I too expect these patterns to be       exceptions rather than the rule, the rule being that the number of       pseudo-elliptic cases is finite and small. But does this pair already       exhaust the store of patterns involving simple square-root radicands       and giving rise to infinitely many pseudo-elliptic integrals?              As regards pseudo-elliptics involving square roots, FriCAS appears to       be reliable: earlier failures for many of the Masser-Zanier integrals       could be attributed to silly coding bugs rather than design oversights.       Is there any moderately-sized square-root pseudo-elliptic integral on       which FriCAS is still known to fail?              Pseudo-elliptics involving higher roots appear to be a different story.              Martin.              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
(c) 1994, bbs@darkrealms.ca