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|    Message 16,157 of 17,516    |
|    intuitionist1@gmail.com to All    |
|    A question about spherical gravitational    |
|    07 Jun 18 17:45:28    |
      Consider the standard picture of gravitational collapse to form a       Schwarzschild black hole of a spherically-symmetric dust cloud of       total mass M, made of identical particles that have zero size,       nonzero mass, and that do not interact with anything.              The dust particles are initially at rest, and are distributed such       that the dust can can be considered continuous with a definite outer       boundary. Outside the dust cloud is vacuum, and with the spherical       symmetry we can apply Birkhoff's theorem and conclude that the       region outside the outer boundary is isometric to some region of       Schwarzschild spacetime.              Since the dust particles don't interact with anything, each one       follows a geodesic in the metric. Since the metric is continuous,       the particles at the outer boundary are in a region with a metric       that is very nearly Schwarzschild, and thus the geodesics they       follow are all infalling. This region with a metric that is nearly       Schwarzschild extends inside the outer boundary for some distance,       and all the particles there are infalling (perhaps at different       rates -- details don't matter). Since the outer boundary is infalling,       the entire dust cloud must be getting smaller (collapsing). The       specific details of this collapse are not important; it is sufficient       to know that the dust cloud is collapsing.              According to standard picture, nothing special happens when the       outer boundary passes r=2M. That is, the above description still       holds and the cloud simply keeps collapsing, all the way down to       r=0, where a curvature singularity forms.              However, there seems to be a problem with this standard picture of       spherical collapse, and I will try to explain my concern.              Let's say that the metric inside the collapsing matter is R(r,t),       and let's say that the Schwarzschild interior is S(r,t). At the       moment that the black hole forms at t=t0, say, it is true that the       boundary conditions require that R(r=2M,t=t0)=S(r=2M,t=t0). However       in general it will obviously not be the case that R(r,t)=S(r,t) for       r<2m or t>t0 as R(r,t) is some non-black hole metric and S(r,t) is       the Schwarzschild interior metric.              Usually it is assumed that there is nothing outside the dust cloud,       and that it has mass M, so that the black hole forms when the       outermost shell reaches r=2M. This outermost shell follows the       geodesics assuming that the metric is S(r,t).              Now, in the standard picture, because the outer shell of matter is       part of the Schwarzschild interior, and _also_ part of the dust       cloud, it is known from Birkhoff's theorem that it must end up in       a singularity, and moreover because there can only be one metric       on the interior submanifold, it must sweep all of the dust particles       inside the cloud with it into the singularity.              The problem is, however, that the particles in the dust cloud live       in a manifold with metric R(r,t), and the particles in the boundary       live in a manifold with metric S(r,t). According to the standard       picture, as this outer shell of particles collapses towards the       singularity, all of the dust particles it encounters along the way       must become swept along with it. But this means that the particles       that had been experiencing/following the geodesics of the metric       R(r,t) must now start experiencing the metric of the Schwarzschild       interior S(r,t).              It is claimed that the particles in the dust cloud follow a geodesic       path (i.e. according to R(r,t)) that is very close to S(r,t).       However, this is _only_ true for the particles very close to the       boundary of the dust cloud, because R(2M-dr,t0+dt) is very close       to S(2M-dr,t0+dt) there. It is _not_ true for particles further       inside the dust cloud where R(r<2M,t>t0) != S(r<2M,t>t0). The two       metrics are finitely different whenever we move a finite distance       either radially inwards or in the temporal future from the event       horizon after the time of formation of the black hole.              The standard claim that the outer boundary 'sweeps' up the particles       in the interior of the dust cloud to follow the Schwarzschild       geodesics implies that by some mechanism as yet to be explained,       the metric R(r<2M,t>t0) experienced by the particles inside the       dust cloud instantaneously start experiencing the new Schwarzschild       metric S(r<2M,t>t0). This is a _finite_ and _discontinuous_ change       in the metric from R(r,t) -> S(r,t).              Now, the only way that the metric can change in this way is if there       is some matter that causes it to do so, but the infinitesimal shell       of matter that is doing the 'sweeping' only has an infinitesimal       mass, and this is insufficient to cause the finite change in the       metric that is required in the interior of the dust cloud. One might       try to argue that as the matter is swept along, the mass inside       this inwardly sweeping shell becomes finite, but this cannot be the       case, because that shell would then have infinite density, resulting       in a singularity. The boundary also cannot somehow 'push' particles       along with it because (i) this is a dust cloud and so the particles       cannot 'push', and (ii) even if it were not a dust cloud, the       particles would not be able to accelerate the swept particles       instantaneously to the speed of light, which is the speed at which       the boundary is collapsing.              So, it seems to me that the standard picture cannot be correct       because there is no physical mechanism by which the finite change       in the metric that would be required in the interior of the dust       cloud can be effected.              The problem can be traced back to the _assumption_ that the outer       shell of particles in the matter cloud follows the Schwarzschild       interior geodesics and sweeps through the interior of the dust       cloud. In actual fact, all particles of the dust cloud continue to       follow the geodesics of the dust cloud. Only particles outside the       dust cloud (which are not initially postulated to exist, but there       is no problem allowing them to be present), will follow the       Schwarzschild interior geodesics upon crossing the event horizon.              These particles cannot 'sweep' through the interior of the dust       cloud because of the incompatibility of the metrics already described,       and thus the only possibility for both metrics R(r,t) and S(r,t)       to be simultaneously present is if a bifurcation or 'branching' of       spacetime takes place at the event horizon precisely at the time       the black hole is formed. The particles inside the dust cloud will       continue to experience the metric R(r,t) for t>t0, and the particles       which fall across the BH event horizon after t=t0 will experience       the metric S(r,t).              I hope that this is clear. (Please let me know if it is not).              Some further issues I have with the standard picture are the fact       that the Schwarzschild singularity lies in the temporal future of       the event horizon, and so it seems incorrect to think of any kind       of 'radial' sweeping taking place. Since the singularity is reached              [continued in next message]              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
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