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|    sci.physics.research    |    Current physics research. (Moderated)    |    17,516 messages    |
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|    Message 16,656 of 17,516    |
|    richalivingston@gmail.com to Nicolaas Vroom    |
|    Re: The rigid rod paradox with 8 clocks.    |
|    14 Nov 19 20:51:24    |
      Nicholaas, See my commentary below:              On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 10:26:30 AM UTC-6, Nicolaas Vroom wrote:       > Consider a rod with 8 clocks, equally spaced, a distance l apart.       > The rod is considered at rest. This implies that the speed of light c=20       > in all directions is the same. We call this rule 1.=20       > The clocks are numbered from #1 to #8.       > The strategy is to perform a certain number of experiments.       >=20       > The first experiment is called clock synchronisation.=20       > Halfway in between clock #4 and #5, there is a light source which emits a=       =20       > reset signal. The setup is such that the length lightpath to each clock i=       s       > the same. Using rule 1 the light signal will reach all the clocks simulta=       neous.       > This is important because all the clocks at any moment will all show the =       same=20       > count.              As stated this implies the clocks are in a circle. If they were in a strai=       ght line they could not all be the same distance from the source of the lig=       ht pulse. However I accept that the clocks can be synchronized with the re=       sult you state by using a slightly more elaborate procedure.              >=20       > The second experiment starts with making an exact copy of rod #1. Also       > attached to each clock there is an engine which can be fired with a stand=       ard       > burst in either the forward or backward direction. Each clock also has       > an observer.=20       > The second experiment consists that each observer on rod #2 fires his eng=       ine       > with a standard burst in the same direction when his clock is reset.=20       > This burst will give the rod a certain speed v.       > The now moving observers will perform the next tasks when they reach the =       next       > clock at rest: They will write down the reading of the clock at rest and       > the reading of their own moving clock.=20       > This is the result:=20       > They are the same for all observers. The number of counts of the moving       > clocks is less than the number of counts of the clocks at rest.       > This is not so strange because it means that the physical forces which       > influence the behaviour of each clock are identical. Specific what this       > means is that all the moving clocks stay synchronised. This is rule 2.       > You can repeat this experiment, but still, rule 2 applies.=20              This is where you are misunderstanding SR. You are applying an impulse to =       each clock/observer on rod #2 and the result is that each clock/observer is=        instantaneously accelerated to some speed, and they all start at the same =       time in this frame. Also, in this frame, they remain the same distance apa=       rt and synchronized as you say, BUT ONLY IN THIS FRAME. In the frame of th=       e observers on the accelerated clocks the other clocks are no longer synchr=       onized, and the spacing between the clocks on rod #2 is no longer the same =       as on rod #1.              >=20       > Experiment 3 is almost identical to experiment 2. That means all       > the engines are fired after the reset signal is received.       > This defines the starting condition of experiment 3. The starting       > condition of experiment 3 is a moving rod with the speed v.       > Experiment 3 involves that a certain moment the light signal between       > clock #4 and #5 of the moving rod issues a reset signal.=20       > Like before the moving observers write down the results when they reach       > the next clock at rest. This is the result:       > All the observers write down the same number of counts for the clocks       > at rest. For the moving clocks, the results are different. The clock       > in front will have the lowest count. The clock at the back the highest       > count. Physical the clock in the back is reset the first.=20              This experiment is not so clear what you intend. I believe you are saying =       that rod #2 is initially moving as speed v and that when alongside rod #1 t=       hat the engines are fired "simultaneously" to cause rod #2 to stop alongsid=       e rod #1. It is important to be clear what you mean by simultaneous, i.e. =       in what frame are they simultaneous? If in the rod #1 frame, and if rod #2=        was accelerated as in experiment #1, then yes, all the clocks will show th=       e same time differences. But be aware that the engines are not being fired=        simultaneously in the moving rod #2 frame. Nor is the initial spacing bet=       ween the clocks on rod #2 in the moving frame the same as on rod #1 measure=       d in its rest frame.              >=20       > Experiment 4 is the same as Experiment 3 with the difference that       > we again make an exact copy of rod #2 before the reset signal is issued.       > This is rod #3.=20       > The extra complication is that in experiment 4 both the moving rod #2=20       > and #3 receive the same reset signal.=20       > The next complication is that when each of the clocks of rod #3 receives =       a=20       > reset signal also the engine is fired in the same direction as experiment=        #2.       > However, this will also give a physical complication, because the engine       > in the back will start first and in front of the latest. As such the phys=       ical       > forces will try to compress the rod.=20              You don't mention, and maybe are not aware, that in experiment 1 that rod #=       2 will be stretched, under tension, immediately after firing the engines th=       at accelerated the rod.              > The opposite case is also possible. That means physical forces will try t=       o       > expand the length of the physical rod.       > =20       > Experiment 2 belongs to what you can call a symmetrical experiment.       > This is the case if you start from a state at rest than in either directi=       on=20       > the results are the same i.e. how higher the speed how slower the=20       > moving clock ticks.       > What is also the case, after reaching a certain speed and the speed is=20       > decreased the clock starts to run faster until the speed reaches zero.              I'm not following what you are intending to say here. If you are seeing so=       me inconsistency, that is because you are not appreciating all the effects =       of the accelerations and SR. Rod #2 will be stretched immediately after th=       e impulse and, in the frame moving with rod #2, the clocks will no longer b=       e synchronized IN THAT FRAME. They will remain synchronized in the rest fr=       ame of rod #1 however, and will continue to be spaced the same distance, un=       til the stiffness of rod #2 pulls the clocks back to their "normal" spacing=       . There are three effects: time dilation, change in synchonization and ch=       ange in spacing. If you correctly understand all of these there is no para=       dox or inconsistency.              >=20       > Experiment 4 belongs to what you can call an asymmetrical experiment.       > This is the case when the starting condition involves a moving rod.       > In that case when a clock receives a burst in the same direction as the       > original speed the clock will start to run slower.=20              [continued in next message]              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
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