Forums before death by AOL, social media and spammers... "We can't have nice things"
|    sci.physics.research    |    Current physics research. (Moderated)    |    17,516 messages    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
|    Message 16,907 of 17,516    |
|    Tom Capizzi to DRLunsford    |
|    Re: Relativistic vs. Euclidean geometry     |
|    08 Nov 21 10:33:24    |
      From: tgcapizzi@gmail.com              [Moderator's note: This post arrived with paragraph-long lines being       broken, but not at spaces between words. That is a standard encoding       for lines which are too long. However, it is much better for the       volunteer moderators if you figure out how to send paragraphs which have       a sensible line length (say at most 72 characters). Even if it looks       like that to you on your screen, that is not necessarily what is sent.       I have reformatted it, but please send short lines in the future. By       far the majority of posts arrive in a more or less acceptable format.       Also, please send only 7-bit ASCII characters; usenet is essentially       medium, despite some extensions being supported in some cases. As a       result, the Greek letters have been garbled and will probably appear       incorrect to most. In such cases, (pseudo-)LaTeX code, e.g. \alpha, but       also \sqrt etc. could be used, but obviously not if there are many such       symbols. -P.H.]              On Thursday, September 16, 2004 at 8:09:24 AM UTC-4, DRLunsford wrote:       > This occured to me at lunch, and is sort of fun...       > We know that the Lorentz transformation can be derived from a       > group-theoretic analysis of space and time, based on simple       > assumptions of isotropy, linearity etc. There exist both synthetic and       > analytic versions of this derivation that have been posted here. The       > end result is, there is a parameter with the dimensions of a velocity       > that is either finite, or infinite, that characterizes the geometry.       > Of course, it is C.       > One might ask, is Euclidean geometry so characterized? The answer is       > yes!       > Metric geometry sits inside projective geometry by positing a       > fundamental quadric. In relativity it is of course the light cone - in       > 1+1 dimensions       > x^2 - (ct)^2 = 0       > which can be factored       > (x - ct)(x + ct) = 0       > so x/t = +-c - this shows how the fundamental quadric is related to       > the characteristic parameter.       > What about Euclidean plane geometry? The fundamental quadric is       > x^2 + y^2 = 0       > which seems like an empty statement, but makes sense in the context of       > projective geometry as the "circular points at infinity". We can now       > factor this as       > (x - iy)(x + iy) = 0       > The characteristic parameter of Euclidean geometry is the imaginary       > unit! So "i" plays the role of the "speed of imaginary light" in       > Euclidean geometry :)       > This has a beautiful interpretation. Intuitively, one knows that, on       > the Euclidean plane, one can imagine a thing called "infinity" which       > can never be got closer to, from which all regular points are       > "infinitely" distant. No matter how far you go, you're always       > "infinitely" far away from "infinity". This is the *exactly analogous*       > result to the impossibility of attaining the speed C in relativity.       > This may be the most basic way complex numbers enter into physics.       > -drl              This information needs to be combined with eigenvector decomposition based       on the Lorentz matrix. In the first place, calling it the Lorentz matrix makers       it appear to be a physics thing. Wrong. It was a simple, hyperbolic rotation       long, long before Lorentz's name was attached to it.              "> We know that the Lorentz transformation can be derived from a       > group-theoretic analysis of space and time, based on simple       > assumptions of isotropy, linearity etc."              Nothing more sophisticated than Euclidean geometry is needed. Indeed,       the hyperbolic geometry that underpins relativity was first used by the       map-maker, Mercator, centuries before it was claimed by physics.       Centuries before group math and relativity.              The details of hyperbolic trigonometry were published in the mid-1700's.       The "Lorentz" Transformation is nothing more than a restatement of the       hyperbolic identities for the cosh and sinh of the sum of two hyperbolic       angles. Given a hyperbolic angle, w, that is the sum of two independent       variables, A and B, those identities are cosh(w) = cos(A+B) =       cosh(A)cosh(B)+sinh(A)sinh(B), and sinh(w) =       sinh(A)cosh(B)+cosh(A)sinh(B). A point, (x,y), on a unit hyperbola with       horizontal symmetry satisfies the equation x²-y² = 1. The coordinates       of this point are equal to (cosh(A),sin(A)). Since the addition of       hyperbolic angles is commutative and linear, it doesn't matter which of       the two angles refers to the initial state. The final state is just the       sum of an initial state and an increment. There is a simple proof, using       geometric algebra, that the sum of hyperbolic rotation angles is linear.       So, we can state that the point (cosh(w),sinh(w)) = (cosh(B+A),       sinh(B+A)). Using the above identities, cosh(B+A)=       cosh(B)cosh(A)+sinh(B)sinh(A) sinh(B+A) = sinh(B)cosh(A)+cosh(B)sinh(A)       The astute observer will notice that this is nothing more than an       expansion of the linear algebra equation: â_cosh(w)â_ â_cosh(B)       sinh(B)â_â_cosh(A)â_ â_ sinh(w)â_=â_sinh(B) cosh(B)â_â_ sinh(A)â_ In       Greek symbols and more specific coordinates: â_ct'â_ â_ γ       -βγâ_â_ctâ_ â_ r' â_=â_-βγ γâ_â_ r â_ Using the same identities,       we can derive the hyperbolic identity of the tanh of the sum of two       hyperbolic angles: v3 = c tanh(w) = c tanh(A+B) =       c(sinh(A)cosh(B)+cosh(A)sinh(B))/(cosh(A)cosh(B)+sinh(A)sinh(B)) =       c(sinh(A)/cosh(A)+sinh(B)/cosh(B))/(1+sinh(A)/cosh(A)*sinh(B)/cosh(B)) =       c(tanh(A)+tanh(B))/(1+tanh(A)*tanh(B)) In its more familiar form, v1 = c       tanh(A) and v2 = c tanh(B): (v1+v2)/(1+v1/c*v2/c), the velocity addition       "rule" of special relativity. It's just a hyperbolic identity. Physics       did not invent it, even if they take credit for it.              "> Metric geometry sits inside projective geometry by positing a       > fundamental quadric. In relativity it is of course the light cone - in       > 1+1 dimensions       > x^2 - (ct)^2 = 0       > which can be factored       > (x - ct)(x + ct) = 0"              Minkowski's initial foray into relativity identified time as an       imaginary component, so that the quadric becomes x^2 + (ict)^2 = x^2 -       (ct)^2 = 0. This equation generates the rectangular hyperbola. In       general, x^2 - (ct)^2 = ±s^2, where the choice of sign depends on an       arbitrary convention. The two values, s and w, are coordinates in a       Cartesian grid. They represent hyperbolic coordinates in which they are       invariant in the absence of external forces. A shift of either       coordinate has no effect on the other coordinate, a standard property of       orthogonal coordinates. Since w can represent arbitrary combinations of       rotation angles, it is convenient to divide it into 2 components, one       being its initial value, w0, at some arbitrary time, t=0, and the other,       its value at some future time, w1. Then w = w1-w0. It makes no       difference if it is a reference to one frame which changes its       hyperbolic angle, or a given frame that is observed by a non co-moving       frame.                     [continued in next message]              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
(c) 1994, bbs@darkrealms.ca