home bbs files messages ]

Forums before death by AOL, social media and spammers... "We can't have nice things"

   sci.physics.research      Current physics research. (Moderated)      17,516 messages   

[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]

   Message 17,366 of 17,516   
   Robert Winn to All   
   Time   
   12 Feb 24 22:55:16   
   
   From: rbwinn3@gmail.com   
      
   [[Mod. note -- Please limit your text to fit within 80 columns,   
   preferably around 70, so that readers don't have to scroll horizontally   
   to read each line.  I have manually reformatted this article.  -- jt]]   
      
   When Galileo and Isaac Newton talked about time, they were referencing   
   the rotation of the earth.  Modern scientists are talking about   
   transitions of a cesium isotope atom.  I am going back to the concept   
   of time these earlier scientists used because , if we take the   
   example of a clock in a flying airplane, modern scientists say that   
   clock will disagree with a clock on the ground.  If the clock on   
   the ground agrees with the rotation of the earth, then, obviously,   
   the clock in the airplane does not.  But its time can still be   
   expressed with the Galilean transformation equations used by Galileo   
   and Newton.   
     x'=x-vt   
     y'=y   
     z'=z   
     t'=t   
   The last equation persuaded scientists to switch over to the Lorentz   
   equations because if t'=t, then x=ct and x'=ct' cannot both be true,   
   which they are in the Lorentz equations.  The results of the   
   Michelson-Morely experiment can still be shown by Galilean equations.   
   There have always been faster and slower clocks.  Scientists like   
   Galileo and Newton understood this.  How do you show the time of a   
   faster or slower clock with the Galilean equations?  You use another   
   set of Galilean equations with different variables of velocity and   
   time.  So the inverse equations to the above equations would be,   
   if describing time shown by a slower clock in an airplane   
     x = x' - (-vt/n')n'   
     y = y'   
     z = z'   
     n = n'   
   n' is the time of the slower clock in the airplane. (-vt/n') is the   
   velocity of the ground relative to the airplane according to the time   
   of the clock in the airplane.  n = n' shows that the time of the   
   clock in the airplane is being used in both frames of reference.   
   So then to show that the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second   
   in both frames of reference, as scientists said the results of the   
   Michelson-Morley experiment required, all you do is say x=ct and x'=cn'.   
     x'=x-vt   
     cn'=ct-vt   
     n' = t-vt/c   
   This value for the time of the slower clock is the same as the   
   numerator of Lorentz's equation for t'.   
     t-vt/c = t - vct/c^2 = t - vx/c^2   
   Having x in this expression is unnecessary in the Galilean equations   
   because there is no length contraction in those equations.  The   
   spatial coordinates are the same as in the original set of equations.   
   The inverse equations also convert back to the original equations   
   if you cancel out the (n')'s.   
     x = x' - (-vt/n')n'   
     x = x' +vt   
     t = t'   
   If we apply these equations to the times of clocks on the planets   
   of the solar system, we can see an interesting relationship.  Mercury   
   is the fastest moving planet, having a speed of 30 mi./sec in its   
   orbit.  A clock on Mercury would be faster than a clock on earth   
   because earth is moving slower, 20 mi/sec.  But the t from which   
   n' is derived to show the time of the clock on Mercury is not derived   
   from the time of a clock on earth.  The time of the clock on earth   
   has an n' derived from the same t and is a faster clock than the   
   one on Mercury because earth is farther from the sun and is moving   
   slower.  As we consider the outer planets each succeeding planet   
   has a slower speed of orbit and a faster clock.  The time t in the   
   equation is the time of a clock, say halfway between the sun and   
   the nearest star, where the rate of a clock would be faster than   
   the rate of a clock on any planet.  So the time of this interstellar   
   clock would be unaffected by gravitation and would not be moving   
   relative to the sun.  The speed of Neptune in its orbit would be v   
   in the equation   
     x = x' - (-vt/n')n'   
   t would be the time of the interstellar clock, and n' would be the   
   time of the clock on Neptune.  Then the time of a clock on each   
   planet could be obtained the same way until you come to Mercury,   
   which would have the slowest clock.  Scientists of today calculate   
   all of this using the time of a clock on earth as the basis for   
   their calculations, which is much more difficult than this method.   
      
   [[Mod. note --   
      
   Scientists doing planetary ephemerises and celestial mechanics often   
   use the time of a clock at the solar system barycenter (= center of mass),   
   so as to avoid the complications of the Earth's changing speed and   
   changing distance from the Sun (and hence changing depth in the Sun's   
   gravitational potential).   
      
   In this context, let me (once again) put in a plug for a beautiful   
   paper   
     Carroll O. Alley,   
     "Proper Time Experiments in Gravitational Fields with Atomic Clocks,   
      Aircraft, and Laser Light Pulses",   
     pages 363-427 in   
     "Quantum Optics, Experimental Gravity, and Measurement Theory",   
     eds. Pierre Meystre and Marlan O. Scully,   
     Proceedings Conf. Bad Windsheim 1981,   
     1983 Plenum Press New York, ISBN 0-306-41354-X.   
   Alley's paper describes a set of experiments which directly compare   
   stationary and moving atomic clocks.  In these experiments the moving   
   clock was in an airplane flown in a "racetrack" pattern over Chesapeake   
   Bay, illuminated by a ground-based pulsed laser so that the stationary   
   and moving clocks could be compared *in real time* while the airplane was   
   in flight.  The results (particularly figures 44-47) clearly show both   
   special- and general-relativistic (gravitational) time effects.   
      
   Unfortunately I don't know of any open-access copy of Alley's paper   
   online, but I have a pdf of it and can send it to anyone who's   
   interested; email me privately at (remove -color)   
    if you'd like a copy.  -- jt]]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)   

[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]


(c) 1994,  bbs@darkrealms.ca