XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage   
   From: rh@rudhar.com   
      
   Wed, 15 May 2024 23:30:46 +0200: wugi  scribeva:   
      
   >Op 15/05/2024 om 19:13 schreef jerryfriedman:   
   >> wugi wrote:   
   >>   
   >> ..   
   >>   
   >>> In Spanish (AFAIK) 'se' precedes the modal verb, or joins the main   
   >>> verb form (infinitive, gerund) behind.   
   >>> Se puede encontrar.   
   >>> Puede encontrarse.   
   >>> Se está mostrando.   
   >>> Está mostrandose.   
   >>> The only clitic to a "main" verb form that I know of is in   
   >>> Érase una vez, once upon a time...   
   >> ..   
   >>   
   >> AFAIK, the rules are the same for all object pronouns.  They also   
   >> come after, and spelled as one word with, imperatives.   
   >>   
   >> I hadn't really thought about the grammar of "vámonos", but it's by   
   >> far the most common example of a reflexive pronoun as a suffix on   
   >> a main verb that I can think of.  There's also "véase" 'see [a   
   >> reference], vide', which I take to be a subjunctive "let [whatever]   
   >> be seen", not an imperative.   
   >   
   >Yes, of course. How many times my brother-in-law has invited me to sit   
   >down, siéntese.   
      
   >Jerry Friedman:   
   >> which I take to be a subjunctive "let [whatever]   
   >> be seen", not an imperative.   
      
   In Spanish and Portuguese, the polite/formal non-negating imperative   
   uses the same forms as the subjunctive. The informal imperative uses   
   the indicative. So in fact many imperatives _are_ subjunctives.   
      
   >How many times my brother-in-law has invited me to sit   
   >down, siéntese.   
      
   Yes, formal siéntese, or informal siéntate.   
      
   >Cuídense is also a common wish and, awkwardly, often "reconjugated" as   
   >cuídesen, as if the "se" part wasn't felt a seperate particle anymore,   
   >or just absent-mindedly?   
   >   
   >> The construction lasted longer in poetry, and for all I know it   
   >> might still be around as an archaim or a metrical device.  Here's   
   >> one from Antonio Machado's _Soledades_ (1899-1907):   
   >>   
   >> con agrio rüido abrióse la puerta   
   >> de hierro mohoso   
   >>   
   >> with a bitter sound the door of rusty iron opened (itself)   
   >>   
   >> https://armandfbaker.github.io/translations/solitude/solitude   
   poems_I-XIX.pdf   
   >   
   >Nice examples, thanks!   
      
   --   
   Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)