XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic   
   From: polcott333@gmail.com   
      
   On 3/21/2025 6:48 AM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   > On 3/20/25 11:49 PM, olcott wrote:   
   >> On 3/20/2025 8:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   >>> On 3/20/25 6:14 PM, olcott wrote:   
   >>>> On 3/19/2025 8:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   >>>>> On 3/19/25 5:50 PM, olcott wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 3/18/2025 10:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On 3/18/25 9:36 AM, olcott wrote:   
   >>>>>>>> On 3/18/2025 8:14 AM, Mikko wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On 2025-03-17 15:40:22 +0000, olcott said:   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/25 9:50 PM, olcott wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/2025 5:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/25 11:12 AM, olcott wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/16/2025 7:36 AM, joes wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sat, 15 Mar 2025 20:43:11 -0500 schrieb olcott:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can define a correct True(X) predicate that always   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> succeeds except   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for unknowns and untruths, Tarski WAS WRONG !!!   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That does not disprove Tarski.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> He said that this is impossible and no   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> counter-examples exists that shows that I am wrong.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> True(GC) == FALSE Cannot be proven true AKA unknown   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> True(LP) == FALSE Not a truth-bearer   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> But if x is what you are saying is   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> A True(X) predicate can be defined and Tarski never   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> showed that it cannot.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Sure he did. Using a mathematical system like Godel, we can   
   >>>>>>>>>>> construct a statement x, which is only true it is the case   
   >>>>>>>>>>> that True(x) is false, but this interperetation can only be   
   >>>>>>>>>>> seen in the metalanguage created from the language in the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> proof, similar to Godel meta that generates the proof testing   
   >>>>>>>>>>> relationship that shows that G can only be true if it can not   
   >>>>>>>>>>> be proven as the existance of a number to make it false,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> becomes a proof that the statement is true and thus creates a   
   >>>>>>>>>>> contradiction in the system.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> That you can't understand that, or get confused by what is in   
   >>>>>>>>>>> the language, which your True predicate can look at, and in   
   >>>>>>>>>>> the metalanguage, which it can not, but still you make bold   
   >>>>>>>>>>> statements that you can not prove, and have been pointed out   
   >>>>>>>>>>> to be wrong, just shows how stupid you are.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> True(X) only returns TRUE when a a sequence of truth   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> preserving operations can derive X from the set of basic   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> facts and returns false otherwise.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Right, but needs to do so even if the path to x is infinite   
   >>>>>>>>>>> in length.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> This never fails on the entire set of human general   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that can be expressed using language.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> But that isn't a logic system, so you are just proving your   
   >>>>>>>>>>> stupidity.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Note, "The Entire set of Human General Knowledge" does not   
   >>>>>>>>>>> contain the contents of Meta-systems like Tarski uses, as   
   >>>>>>>>>>> there are an infinite number of them possible, and thus to   
   >>>>>>>>>>> even try to express them all requires an infinite number of   
   >>>>>>>>>>> axioms, and thus your system fails to meet the requirements.   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Once you don't have the meta- systems, Tarski proof can   
   >>>>>>>>>>> create a metasystem, that you system doesn't know about,   
   >>>>>>>>>>> which creates the problem statement.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> It is not fooled by pathological self-reference or   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> self-contradiction.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Of course it is, because it can't detect all forms of such   
   >>>>>>>>>>> references.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> And, even if it does detect it, what answer does True(x)   
   >>>>>>>>>>> produce when we have designed (via a metalanguage) that the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> statement x in the language will be true if and only if !   
   >>>>>>>>>>> True(x), which he showed can be done in ANY system with   
   >>>>>>>>>>> sufficient power, which your universal system must have.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, you are just showing how little you understand what   
   >>>>>>>>>>> you are talking about.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> We need no metalanguage. A single formalized natural   
   >>>>>>>>>> language can express its own semantics as connections   
   >>>>>>>>>> between expressions of this same language.   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>> A nice formal language has the symbols and syntax of the first   
   >>>>>>>>> order logic   
   >>>>>>>>> with equivalence and the following additional symbols:   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> I am not talking about a trivially simple formal   
   >>>>>>>> language. I am talking about very significant   
   >>>>>>>> extensions to something like Montague grammar.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> The language must be expressive enough to fully   
   >>>>>>>> encode any and all details of each element of the   
   >>>>>>>> entire body of human general knowledge that can   
   >>>>>>>> be expressed using language. Davidson semantics   
   >>>>>>>> provides another encoding.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> But "encoding" knowledge, isn't a logic system.   
   >>>>>> Unless you bother to pay attention to the details   
   >>>>>> of how this of encoded.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> But "Encoded Knowledge" isn't a logic system. PERIOD. BYU   
   >>>>> DEFINITION. That would just be a set of axioms. Note, Logic system   
   >>>>> must also have a set of rules of relationships and how to   
   >>>>> manipulate them,   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Yes stupid I already specified those 150 times.   
   >>>> TRUTH PRESERVING OPERATIONS.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> and that needs more that just expressing them as knowledge.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> NOT AT ALL DUMB BUNNY, for all the expressions   
   >>>> that are proved completely true entirely on the basis of   
   >>>> their meaning expressed in language they only need a   
   >>>> connection this semantic meaning to prove that they   
   >>>> are true.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Part of the problem is that most of what we call "Human   
   >>>>>>> Knowledge" isn't logically defined truth, but is just "Emperical   
   >>>>>>> Knowledge", for which we   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> The set of human knowledge that can be expressed   
   >>>>>> in language provides the means to compute True(X).   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Of course not, as then True(x) just can't handle a statement whose   
   >>>>> truth is currently unknown, which it MUST be able to handle   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
      
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