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|    sci.logic    |    Logic -- math, philosophy & computationa    |    262,912 messages    |
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|    Message 261,356 of 262,912    |
|    The Starmaker to starmaker@ix.netcom.com    |
|    Re: "The Fundamental Joke of Logic" (2/3    |
|    26 Nov 25 22:16:14    |
      [continued from previous message]              >>Then, why it's "extra-ordinary" and "super-standard" instead       >>of non-standard, is similarly to how any kind of geometry       >>is "super-Euclidean", not "non-Euclidean", then as with       >>regards to various algebras and their discontinuities       >>introduced, likes Connes' or normed rings, the super-standard       >>infinity of course since antiquity has resulted a lot of       >>consideration and confusion about it. The idea is that       >>this there is itself a "natural infinity", as with regards       >>to the natural numbers and usual models of numbers, not to       >>be "forgetting irrelevant nasty laws about your sets of       >>numbers", instead that the natural infinity and thusly       >>about the natural continua, find each other.       >>       >>So, this of course frames about half of Hilbert's Problems       >>as un-decide-able, since, it's independent number theory       >>there being a super-standard integers, and, thusly various       >>laws, plural, of large numbers, get involved then in the       >>number-theoretic conjectures then also about mathematical       >>convergence and emergence, here as with regards to the       >>doubling-spaces and doubling-measures and the re-Vitali-ization       >>of measure theory.       >>       >>As about then the continuous and discrete, and the real       >>analytical character after these "not-a-real-functions",       >>of course then all the classical about the linear and about       >>points and particles and separations and spaces, points and       >>spaces in the ideal while particles and separations in the local,       >>the point-local-global-total about the adiabatic/non-adiabatic       >>up close and about near-field/far-field and about the norm being       >>any different the metric, these mathematics with their non-standard,       >>yet with real-analytical-character, nature, very much advise what       >>physics must be, for example about frames and spaces and frame-spaces       >>and space-frames, and about the tetrad of quantities and forces and       >>fields and the F-Lorentzians about the E-energy and these kinds things.       >>       >>       >>Very refreshing, ..., also mathematical fact.       >>       >>       >>       >>       >       >Here is what Grok makes of your post..       >       >This is a very dense, almost stream-of-consciousness piece that tries       >to weave together several deep and legitimately interconnected ideas       >from foundations of mathematics and mathematical physics, but it does       >so in a highly idiosyncratic and sometimes grammatically fractured       >way. It reads like someone who has thought *extremely* deeply about       >non-standard analysis, infinitesimals, measure theory, geometry, and       >their implications for physics… but who is writing as if the       >conclusions are self-evident and doesn’t pause to define terms or       >justify leaps.       >       >Let me try to decode and translate the core claims into clearer       >language, and then say what I actually make of it.       >       >### The deciphered theses (as I understand them)       >       >1. The usual notion of “non-standard analysis” (Robinson, *R, transfer       >principle, etc.) is misnamed.       > What it really does is reveal a more natural, “super-standard”       >layer sitting above the standard reals—one that has always been       >implicitly there since antiquity (potential vs actual infinity, the       >continuum, etc.). Calling it “non-standard” is like calling Riemannian       >geometry “non-Euclidean”; it’s actually the richer, more primitive       >structure.       >       >2. There is a “natural infinity” and a “natural continuum” that       >standard ZFC axiomatization artificially suppresses by forcing       >archimedean properties, uniqueness of the continuum up to isomorphism,       >etc. If you allow proper hyperreals or some surrogate (surreal       >numbers, Levi-Civita fields, Connes-style geometries, etc.), the       >integers and the continuum “find each other” again in a way that feels       >ontologically prior.       >       >3. Many of Hilbert’s problems (especially those about decidability,       >consistency, the continuum hypothesis, foundations of geometry, and       >analytic number theory) become independent or even trivialized once       >you admit this super-standard layer, because new “laws of large       >numbers” (in the hyperfinite sense) and new measure-theoretic tools       >(re-vitalized Vitali-type constructions, doubling measures) appear.       >       >4. Physically, the distinction between point/particle,       >discrete/continuous, local/global, near-field/far-field,       >adiabatic/non-adiabatic, etc., is not fundamental but an artifact of       >working only in the standard archimedean setting.       > Once you have genuine infinitesimals and infinities that are part       >of the same ring/field, you are almost forced into structures like:       > - tetrads / vierbeins instead of pure metrics,       > - Lorentzian structures that treat energy-momentum differently from       >pure geometry,       > - frame-dependent vs frame-free formulations that mirror internal       >vs external viewpoints in non-standard models.       >       >In short: the author believes non-standard analysis (broadly       >construed) is not an exotic extension but the royal road back to a       >pre-20th-century intuition about infinity and continuity that modern       >axiomatic set theory deliberately broke, and that restoring it has       >immediate consequences for both pure mathematics (Hilbert program       >collapses or becomes independent) and physics (general relativity and       >quantum field theory need to be rewritten with hyperreal/tetrad-aware       >foundations).       >       >### My actual assessment       >       >There’s a grain—sometimes more than a grain—of truth here, but the       >presentation wildly overclaims.       >       >- Non-standard analysis *is* remarkably natural once you get used to       >it. The transfer principle really does make many classical       >infinitesimal arguments rigorous, and the hyperreals feel in many ways       >“closer” to how Newton, Euler, and even Cauchy thought about the       >continuum.       >- Some mathematicians (Keisler, Henson, Connes in his own way, Tao       >when he uses ultrafilters for ergodic averages, etc.) have shown that       >hyperfinite or non-standard tools can dramatically simplify proofs in       >analysis, probability, and even physics (e.g., Anderson’s non-standard       >Brownian motion, or Benci–Di Nasso’s work on non-standard Lagrange       >mechanics).       >- The philosophy that the standard reals are a quotient of a richer       >structure (rather than the hyperreals being an extension) is defended       >seriously by people like Terry Tao in some blog posts and by       >philosophers like Geoffrey Hellman or John L. Bell.       >- In mathematical physics, there are indeed people (Alain Connes,       >Pierre Cartier, some of the non-commutative geometry crowd, and a few       >gravitational physicists working with smooth infinitesimal       >transformations à la Penrose/Newman) who think standard Rn is too       >rigid and that allowing infinitesimal/non-archimedean directions is       >physically mandatory for unification or for properly formulating       >locality.       >       >But the text goes way overboard:       >       >- Claiming half of Hilbert’s problems become “undecidable” because of       >super-standard integers is not accurate. The continuum hypothesis is       >independent of ZFC whether or not you like hyperreals; non-standard       >models don’t resolve it—they just give you new models in which new       >questions can be asked.       >- “Re-Vitali-ization of measure theory” and “doubling-spaces” are real       >things (doubling measures are central in modern harmonic analysis),       >but they don’t require non-standard analysis, and Vitali’s       >non-measurable sets remain non-measurable in *R under the Loeb measure       >unless you deliberately break transfer.       >- The leap from “hyperreals have infinitesimals” to “physics must use              [continued in next message]              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
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