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|    sci.logic    |    Logic -- math, philosophy & computationa    |    262,912 messages    |
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|    Message 261,388 of 262,912    |
|    Ross Finlayson to The Starmaker    |
|    Re: "The Fundamental Joke of Logic" (2/3    |
|    27 Nov 25 22:07:06    |
      [continued from previous message]              >>>> of magnitude with regards to each other, the the idea of       >>>> turning that over and filling it out as simply like a       >>>> hermit and guru with the greatest wisdom in the world,       >>>> that seems fair.       >>>>       >>>>       >>>       >>> The non-standard in arithmetic is about infinity, pretty much.       >>>       >>> Mathematical infinity, as everybody knows it, is supreme       >>> among numbers, while as well, in reflection, about zero.       >>>       >>> Then, why it's "extra-ordinary" and "super-standard" instead       >>> of non-standard, is similarly to how any kind of geometry       >>> is "super-Euclidean", not "non-Euclidean", then as with       >>> regards to various algebras and their discontinuities       >>> introduced, likes Connes' or normed rings, the super-standard       >>> infinity of course since antiquity has resulted a lot of       >>> consideration and confusion about it. The idea is that       >>> this there is itself a "natural infinity", as with regards       >>> to the natural numbers and usual models of numbers, not to       >>> be "forgetting irrelevant nasty laws about your sets of       >>> numbers", instead that the natural infinity and thusly       >>> about the natural continua, find each other.       >>>       >>> So, this of course frames about half of Hilbert's Problems       >>> as un-decide-able, since, it's independent number theory       >>> there being a super-standard integers, and, thusly various       >>> laws, plural, of large numbers, get involved then in the       >>> number-theoretic conjectures then also about mathematical       >>> convergence and emergence, here as with regards to the       >>> doubling-spaces and doubling-measures and the re-Vitali-ization       >>> of measure theory.       >>>       >>> As about then the continuous and discrete, and the real       >>> analytical character after these "not-a-real-functions",       >>> of course then all the classical about the linear and about       >>> points and particles and separations and spaces, points and       >>> spaces in the ideal while particles and separations in the local,       >>> the point-local-global-total about the adiabatic/non-adiabatic       >>> up close and about near-field/far-field and about the norm being       >>> any different the metric, these mathematics with their non-standard,       >>> yet with real-analytical-character, nature, very much advise what       >>> physics must be, for example about frames and spaces and frame-spaces       >>> and space-frames, and about the tetrad of quantities and forces and       >>> fields and the F-Lorentzians about the E-energy and these kinds things.       >>>       >>>       >>> Very refreshing, ..., also mathematical fact.       >>>       >>>       >>>       >>>       >>       >> Here is what Grok makes of your post..       >>       >> This is a very dense, almost stream-of-consciousness piece that tries       >> to weave together several deep and legitimately interconnected ideas       >>from foundations of mathematics and mathematical physics, but it does       >> so in a highly idiosyncratic and sometimes grammatically fractured       >> way. It reads like someone who has thought *extremely* deeply about       >> non-standard analysis, infinitesimals, measure theory, geometry, and       >> their implications for physics… but who is writing as if the       >> conclusions are self-evident and doesn’t pause to define terms or       >> justify leaps.       >>       >> Let me try to decode and translate the core claims into clearer       >> language, and then say what I actually make of it.       >>       >> ### The deciphered theses (as I understand them)       >>       >> 1. The usual notion of “non-standard analysis” (Robinson, *R, transfer       >> principle, etc.) is misnamed.       >> What it really does is reveal a more natural, “super-standard”       >> layer sitting above the standard reals—one that has always been       >> implicitly there since antiquity (potential vs actual infinity, the       >> continuum, etc.). Calling it “non-standard” is like calling Riemannian       >> geometry “non-Euclidean”; it’s actually the richer, more primitive       >> structure.       >>       >> 2. There is a “natural infinity” and a “natural continuum” that       >> standard ZFC axiomatization artificially suppresses by forcing       >> archimedean properties, uniqueness of the continuum up to isomorphism,       >> etc. If you allow proper hyperreals or some surrogate (surreal       >> numbers, Levi-Civita fields, Connes-style geometries, etc.), the       >> integers and the continuum “find each other” again in a way that feels       >> ontologically prior.       >>       >> 3. Many of Hilbert’s problems (especially those about decidability,       >> consistency, the continuum hypothesis, foundations of geometry, and       >> analytic number theory) become independent or even trivialized once       >> you admit this super-standard layer, because new “laws of large       >> numbers” (in the hyperfinite sense) and new measure-theoretic tools       >> (re-vitalized Vitali-type constructions, doubling measures) appear.       >>       >> 4. Physically, the distinction between point/particle,       >> discrete/continuous, local/global, near-field/far-field,       >> adiabatic/non-adiabatic, etc., is not fundamental but an artifact of       >> working only in the standard archimedean setting.       >> Once you have genuine infinitesimals and infinities that are part       >> of the same ring/field, you are almost forced into structures like:       >> - tetrads / vierbeins instead of pure metrics,       >> - Lorentzian structures that treat energy-momentum differently from       >> pure geometry,       >> - frame-dependent vs frame-free formulations that mirror internal       >> vs external viewpoints in non-standard models.       >>       >> In short: the author believes non-standard analysis (broadly       >> construed) is not an exotic extension but the royal road back to a       >> pre-20th-century intuition about infinity and continuity that modern       >> axiomatic set theory deliberately broke, and that restoring it has       >> immediate consequences for both pure mathematics (Hilbert program       >> collapses or becomes independent) and physics (general relativity and       >> quantum field theory need to be rewritten with hyperreal/tetrad-aware       >> foundations).       >>       >> ### My actual assessment       >>       >> There’s a grain—sometimes more than a grain—of truth here, but the       >> presentation wildly overclaims.       >>       >> - Non-standard analysis *is* remarkably natural once you get used to       >> it. The transfer principle really does make many classical       >> infinitesimal arguments rigorous, and the hyperreals feel in many ways       >> “closer” to how Newton, Euler, and even Cauchy thought about the       >> continuum.       >> - Some mathematicians (Keisler, Henson, Connes in his own way, Tao       >> when he uses ultrafilters for ergodic averages, etc.) have shown that       >> hyperfinite or non-standard tools can dramatically simplify proofs in       >> analysis, probability, and even physics (e.g., Anderson’s non-standard       >> Brownian motion, or Benci–Di Nasso’s work on non-standard Lagrange       >> mechanics).       >> - The philosophy that the standard reals are a quotient of a richer       >> structure (rather than the hyperreals being an extension) is defended       >> seriously by people like Terry Tao in some blog posts and by       >> philosophers like Geoffrey Hellman or John L. Bell.       >> - In mathematical physics, there are indeed people (Alain Connes,       >> Pierre Cartier, some of the non-commutative geometry crowd, and a few       >> gravitational physicists working with smooth infinitesimal       >> transformations à la Penrose/Newman) who think standard Rn is too       >> rigid and that allowing infinitesimal/non-archimedean directions is       >> physically mandatory for unification or for properly formulating       >> locality.       >>       >> But the text goes way overboard:       >>              [continued in next message]              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
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